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Forums - Nintendo - Digital Foundry Looks At the Future Of the Nintendo-Nvidia Relationship

Barkley said:
Miyamotoo said:

720p game on 720p screen or on 1080p screen will look exatly same

Read: "Upscaling is a useless thing, so many companies using it yet it does nothing."

I don't have anything else to comment, if you think upscaling a game rendered at 720p to a 1080p display does nothing, and that a higher resolution for UI is pointless then I won't try and convince you otherwise.

PLS give me one example of upscaled game.

And yes, Ul 1080p on 6.2 sceen where game is 720p is almost pointles, and Nintendo wouldnt done something like that in any case.



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My guesses:

1-A mini switch.
X2 allows to shrink the size of switch(less heat make possible to shrink the heat dissipation system, less power consumption means smaller battery that would still have higher battery life than regular switch). Retractable joy-con, a 7 cm joy-con to match the size of the mini switch, but it can be extendable to 10cm to work in any switch.

2-And switch +. Same size as regular switch, but x2 would give power to optionally run the handheld mode in the same configuration as the docked mode. And 1080p screen(not that is necessary, but the marketing would help to sell, like in unnecessary 1080p screen on phones).but even with a 1080p screen, the power consumption would be lower than regular switch.
But also, the user can choose in the configuration if want more battery life(in this case, it runs in the regular handheld switch configuration 720p simple upscaled to 1080) or if he want performance(runs in the same configuration as the tv). 128gb also.

I don't believe in supplemental device, at least I don't understand the logic. Imagine: gpu on dock generates the computations, than passes them through mini USB to switch, than switch passes again to mini USB than the image goes to the TV... Seems too complicated to work properly.



Miyamotoo said:

So on 6.2" screen game would be run at 720p but we would have UI elements of 1080p!? :D That literally doesn't change anything when game itself is still 720p. Upscaling will not change fact that game is running at native 720p resolution, if I play 720p game on my 1080p TV, that games still renders at 720p not at 1080p. Switch doesn't have any applications.

Again, I am not sure if you have read what I have written correctly or not. But I did stipulate that "Post Processing" is also a thing, if you are not sure what Post-Processing is or does, then I am more than happy to elaborate on that point and educate you on the topic.

And sharper, cleaner UI elements are a good thing. On the Playstation 4 Pro, Overwatch has a 4k UI when the game is rendered at 1080P.


Miyamotoo said:

Less power hungry screen still wouldn't change fact that Switch would still us much more power in order to run 1080p games than is its using now in handheld mode.

A less power hungry screen means more power to run 1080P games.

I am not sure you are understanding this correctly. If the screen uses less power, that means more power for rendering, does it not?

Miyamotoo said:

Of Course that more modern chip will be more efficient, I talking about current chip Switch is using.

Which is old and outdated.

Miyamotoo said:

You dont know what are you talking about, we still dont have any device that uses Tegra X2, even Nvidias onw Shield for 2017. is using Tegra X1. You need to have chip totally ready, tested with good yield,with good strong production capacity for new chip, and already produced millions of chips months before mass production of Switch itelf starts. It's very obvious that X2 chip in millions couldn't be ready on time for Switch.

Yields and production capacity is clearly not going to be an issue, these aren't monolithic chips on a cutting edge process. Perhaps you aren't the one who doesn't know what they are talking about? ;)

And I don't think you fully comprehend nVidia's direction with Tegra.
nVidia is no longer focusing on the Consumer markets with Tegra, it's not selling there, never has.
Don't be surprised if there is no Pascal based Shield device, but a jump straight to Volta, but just because there is no consumer devices using Pascal, doesn't mean the chips don't exist.

They are going after professional markets and cars with Tegra... And nVidia has had working Silicon in production cars for over a year now. That's a fact.
If Maxwell Tegra didn't sell millions in consumer devices like Tablets, Phones, Consoles or other form factors, of course nVidia isn't going to spin up Pascal or Volta production.
It wasn't untill the Switch that nVidia has even had success with Tegra in any gaming markets.

Nintendo could have contracted nVidia for Pascal based chips, but decided to cut corners.

RolStoppable said:

Being a consumer doesn't exclude you from being capable of sound reasoning. Even the slightest bit of objectivity would make you realize that your demands only match a tiny and negligible minority of the market.

Maybe so. But they are still my expectations/needs/wants/desires as a consumer. And I do not have to change them to conform to anyone elses needs/wants/desires.
If a company wants my money, then they need to give me what I want, if they don't, then that's fine. But that also doesn't mean they are above criticism.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Goodnightmoon said:
chakkra said:

Sorry but I think you're being shortsighted and not completely honest with yourself.  You would not have Breath of The Wild (as it is) on the Wii or 3DS hardware, you needed POWER for that. Plain and simple.

As long as they look well and they are engaging to play most people doesn't care about how advanced the tech behind is, BoTW is running on a WiiU which is supposed to be close to Ps3/X360, I didn't need a powerhouse to play one of the best videogames ever done. Better tech is great, but at what cost? should Switch be way more powerful and cost 500$ just so the tech enthusiasts are happy but nobody else buy it? No it shouldn't, the console is impressive enough as it is, every single person I have seen experiencing the Switch for the first time have a similar reaction, a very good one, games look beyond awesome for a handheld, and at this level they look good enough on a TV (games like MK8D or Arms are good prove of that) so that's everything that matters in that regard, people doesn't care if you are using subsurface scattering on Link's skin.

And yet millions and millions of people have gone out their way to buy GTA V, The Last of Us, Twilight Princess HD and Zelda WW remastered just for the small improvements in graphics.  And I'm sure a huge chunk of those people had already played those games.

Seems to me that you're feeling content with the level of performance that Nintendo is providing right now.  But I'm almost a 100% sure that a few years down the line, if Nintendo releases a Switch 2.0 with 5X more power and a BOTW 4K running at stable 60FPS, you might be tempted to buy it.  



Pemalite said:
Miyamotoo said:

So on 6.2" screen game would be run at 720p but we would have UI elements of 1080p!? :D That literally doesn't change anything when game itself is still 720p. Upscaling will not change fact that game is running at native 720p resolution, if I play 720p game on my 1080p TV, that games still renders at 720p not at 1080p. Switch doesn't have any applications.

Again, I am not sure if you have read what I have written correctly or not. But I did stipulate that "Post Processing" is also a thing, if you are not sure what Post-Processing is or does, then I am more than happy to elaborate on that point and educate you on the topic.

And sharper, cleaner UI elements are a good thing. On the Playstation 4 Pro, Overwatch has a 4k UI when the game is rendered at 1080P.


Miyamotoo said:

Less power hungry screen still wouldn't change fact that Switch would still us much more power in order to run 1080p games than is its using now in handheld mode.

A less power hungry screen means more power to run 1080P games.

I am not sure you are understanding this correctly. If the screen uses less power, that means more power for rendering, does it not?

Miyamotoo said:

Of Course that more modern chip will be more efficient, I talking about current chip Switch is using.

Which is old and outdated.

Miyamotoo said:

You dont know what are you talking about, we still dont have any device that uses Tegra X2, even Nvidias onw Shield for 2017. is using Tegra X1. You need to have chip totally ready, tested with good yield,with good strong production capacity for new chip, and already produced millions of chips months before mass production of Switch itelf starts. It's very obvious that X2 chip in millions couldn't be ready on time for Switch.

Yields and production capacity is clearly not going to be an issue, these aren't monolithic chips on a cutting edge process. Perhaps you aren't the one who doesn't know what they are talking about? ;)

And I don't think you fully comprehend nVidia's direction with Tegra.
nVidia is no longer focusing on the Consumer markets with Tegra, it's not selling there, never has.
Don't be surprised if there is no Pascal based Shield device, but a jump straight to Volta, but just because there is no consumer devices using Pascal, doesn't mean the chips don't exist.

They are going after professional markets and cars with Tegra... And nVidia has had working Silicon in production cars for over a year now. That's a fact.
If Maxwell Tegra didn't sell millions in consumer devices like Tablets, Phones, Consoles or other form factors, of course nVidia isn't going to spin up Pascal or Volta production.
It wasn't untill the Switch that nVidia has even had success with Tegra in any gaming markets.

Nintendo could have contracted nVidia for Pascal based chips, but decided to cut corners.


Sharper, cleaner UI elements does not same effect on 6.2" screen compared to TV, and again Nintendo wouldn't that in any case, even eShop in docked mode is running at 720p.

Of Course I understand that, but that wouldn't change fact GPU would need to run at higher clock and that again means lower battery life despite less power hungry screen.

Of Course that yields and production capacity it could easily be an issue for Switch where was in production. Chips exist but most likly they couldnt be done on time for Switch (fully tested with huge stock already produced), Nintendo couldn't wait last minute for X2 chips, like I wrote: you need to have chip totally ready, tested with good yield,with good strong production capacity for new chip, and already produced millions of chips months before mass production of Switch itelf starts.

Also you need to consider that even X2 chips could be done on time, they would have much higer price than X1 chips and automaticly means higher price point for Switch. Because new 16nm chip production for X2 would have much higher price than price Nvidia gave Nintendo for X1 chips, there are infos that Nvidia had huge stocks of X1 chips and they gave Nintendo great price and offer to use them.



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Switch was intended for holiday 2016 most likely when they made the chipset decision, likely around late 2014 or so.

Tegra X2 simply wasn't in the cards then, and they had to make a decision on a chip. You can't just choose the chipset like 4 months prior, those decisions are made years in advance.

At the time Nintendo made the decision, Tegra X1 was the best mobile chip available.



Miyamotoo said:

Nintendo doesn't do post processing 

Dude, just stop. Every time you post you're demonstrating your lack of understanding of the subject matter.



curl-6 said:
Miyamotoo said:

Nintendo doesn't do post processing 

 

Dude, just stop. Every time you post you're demonstrating your lack of understanding of the subject matter.

My bad, I mixed post processing with something else.



Miyamotoo said:

Sharper, cleaner UI elements does not same effect on 6.2" screen compared to TV, and again Nintendo wouldn't that in any case, even eShop in docked mode is running at 720p.

Again. You simply arn't getting it and keep missing the point. That is the 3rd time now. - It would if the screen was larger and higher resolution.


Miyamotoo said:

Of Course I understand that, but that wouldn't change fact GPU would need to run at higher clock and that again means lower battery life despite less power hungry screen.

Again. You simply are not getting it. Again.

If the screen is using less power, then the GPU would be allowed to use more power. They would cancel each other out. - Please re-read that line multiple times before replying.

Thus the device would use roughly the same amount of power as it does now, giving you a larger, higher resolution, higher quality screen, more performance for better graphics... With identical battery life.

Miyamotoo said:

Of Course that yields and production capacity it could easily be an issue for Switch where was in production.

Not really. These are tiny chips and you can fit a ton of these chips on a wafer. And because the chips are relatively small, you get higher yields. Physics. Isn't it an amazing thing?

Miyamotoo said:

Chips exist but most likly they couldnt be done on time for Switch (fully tested with huge stock already produced), Nintendo couldn't wait last minute for X2 chips, like I wrote: you need to have chip totally ready, tested with good yield,with good strong production capacity for new chip, and already produced millions of chips months before mass production of Switch itelf starts.

Nintendo wouldn't have been waiting last minute.

What part of... "Tegra X2 Demonstrated in January 2016" and "Switch launches in March 2017" is last minute? Not to mention there was working silicon in 2015, that wasn't production level ready.

But don't take my word for it.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9902/nvidia-discloses-2016-tegra

Hotchips 2016:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/10596/hot-chips-2016-nvidia-discloses-tegra-parker-details

These aren't custom chips Nintendo is buying. Once a chip has been taped out the design is pretty much done. That was over a year ago, nVidia just doesn't have any buyers. No buyers, no selling, no manufacturing.

Tegra Xavier will start sampling in Q4 2017. What that means is there will not be any consumer tablets, phones, boxes of any kind that used the Pascal/Tegra X2 chip... Because, nVidia didn't get any contracts or design wins.

Again, some linkage:
http://wccftech.com/nvidia-xavier-soc-tegra-volta-gpu-announced/

Tegra X2/Parker was being designed as far back as 2013. Is 4 years enough time? ;)

Evidence:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/03/19/nvidia_tegra_logan_and_parker/
http://wccftech.com/nvidia-tegra-roadmap-updated-tegra-6-parker-soc-feature-maxwell-gpu-project-denver/

But this ignores the fact that there were Tegra X2/Parker/Pascal based chips in October 2016 in all Tesla powered vehicles. So mass-production would have started a long time earlier.

Miyamotoo said:

Also you need to consider that even X2 chips could be done on time, they would have much higer price than X1 chips and automaticly means higher price point for Switch. Because new 16nm chip production for X2 would have much higher price than price Nvidia gave Nintendo for X1 chips, there are infos that Nvidia had huge stocks of X1 chips and they gave Nintendo great price and offer to use them.

Cost isn't my problem. I am a consumer. I want more at a lower price. And so should you.
A business isn't going to send you flowers and cake because you bought their product, you don't owe them anything.

Nor do we actually know the costing anyway.

Also 16nm isn't "new". It's based on 20nm.




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Edit: Sorry for the double post. Not sure what happened.

Soundwave said:

Switch was intended for holiday 2016 most likely when they made the chipset decision, likely around late 2014 or so.


Possibly. But Tegra X2 was a known quantity before holiday 2016. Nintendo and nVidia likely had that "talk".

Tegra X2 was on the roadmaps in 2013. nVidia would have planned for it years before that.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite