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Forums - Gaming - Breath of the Wild, perfect scores, and framerate

potato_hamster said:

Ohh right, and the design of the Powerglove wasn't "broken". That piece of garbage worked exactly as it was designed. It was just designed terribly.

Yeah Power Glove had a bad design and? If you think comments like these are giving you any ground here they're not they're only serving to make you look more out of your element here, it doesn't even debunk anything posted it just comes across as a defeated comment.

You've not once here offered a single explanation to why durability is broken but seem hell bent on targeting peopl over it.



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mZuzek said:
potato_hamster said:

Okay. Your opinion is an objective fact because you *really really* want it to be. Thanks for clearing up just how little you understand what the phrase "subjective opinion" means.

Again, everything you're describing is your personal feelings regarding how you felt when you played the game. It is not an objective fact no matter how much you want it to be. Sorry.

I don't *really really* want it to be. I'm describing in-game situations that arise due to the game's mechanics, and that were meant to be experienced this way when the game was designed. There is enough evidence that simply making weapons more durable would break the gameplay flow and make the whole combat in the game completely pointless - if the whole game had been designed with infinitely durable weapons in mind, then it might have been fun with that system. However, the way the game is designed as is, having destructible weapons is far better than not.

If all I'm saying is merely an opinion, albeit one that I clearly gave considerable thought upon, then I ask you to tell me your opinion given enough thought as well. If the game had unbreakable weapons (and that was the only change to it), how fun do you think combat would be?

You do "really really" want it to be. Every time you use "want" or "useless" or "disappointed" or "crappy" you're describing your own personal desires and feelings as it applies to BotW.  As for how fun I think the game would be without any type of durability mechanic, I'm not sure why you want to discuss my subjective opinion (which is actually what fun is) on something that you feel is objective.



Wyrdness said:
potato_hamster said:

Ohh right, and the design of the Powerglove wasn't "broken". That piece of garbage worked exactly as it was designed. It was just designed terribly.

Yeah Power Glove had a bad design and? If you think comments like these are giving you any ground here they're not they're only serving to make you look more out of your element here, it doesn't even debunk anything posted it just comes across as a defeated comment.

You've not once here offered a single explanation to why durability is broken but seem hell bent on targeting peopl over it.


Reasons why durability is broken is subjective to the person who plays the game and doesn't enjoy it.

See how you said how the Power Glove had a bad design? Lets just try this thought exercise: The weapon durability in BotW is... a bad design. Huh... Imagine how that works. You want to argue over "bad" vs "broken", well that's just a matter of semantics and I don't care for it. If you prefer, just replace every usage of the word "broken" with "bad" in previous instances of the conseration, because I'd rather not get caught up in such nonsense.



mZuzek said:
potato_hamster said:

You do "really really" want it to be. Every time you use "want" or "useless" or "disappointed" or "crappy" you're describing your own personal desires and feelings as it applies to BotW.  As for how fun I think the game would be without any type of durability mechanic, I'm not sure why you want to discuss my subjective opinion (which is actually what fun is) on something that you feel is objective.

Because I want you to start using arguments, just like I am, instead of continue dragging this "objective X subjective" crap on and on.

It's not crap. You literally believe your own personal opinion is fact. There's no point in conversing with you if you can't get over that hurdle because you can always loop back to treating your opinion as fact if anyone disagrees with you. it's a nonstarter.



potato_hamster said:
Wyrdness said:

Yeah Power Glove had a bad design and? If you think comments like these are giving you any ground here they're not they're only serving to make you look more out of your element here, it doesn't even debunk anything posted it just comes across as a defeated comment.

You've not once here offered a single explanation to why durability is broken but seem hell bent on targeting peopl over it.


Reasons why durability is broken is subjective to the person who plays the game and doesn't enjoy it.

See how you said how the Power Glove had a bad design? Lets just try this thought exercise: The weapon durability in BotW is... a bad design. Huh... Imagine how that works. You want to argue over "bad" vs "broken", well that's just a matter of semantics and I don't care for it. If you prefer, just replace every usage of the word "broken" with "bad" in previous instances of the conseration, because I'd rather not get caught up in such nonsense.

Broken is not subjective drop that nonsense, not enjoying something doesn't mean it's broken it.

BOTW durability is not bad design as it works well the weapons and items in the game are resources you manage to get you through situations much like the paired weapon system in Halo, in the latter you're forced to drop or lose weapons to progress as well, it's not broken because fundamentally the designs of both systems work in a way that the play can always get through especially if the player is optimal. Power Glove was just bad design because it was not practical and nothing could really take advantage of it.

You seem to be trying to push this notion that something not being to someone's preference is bad design or broken, it's not bad design is something not very practical and broken is something not working as intended.

Example of bad design is the Swarm Host unit in Starcraft 2 LOTV as it undermines RTS fundamentals, example of something broken is the junction system in FFVIII as it was never properly balanced and is now days exploited to make the game super easy. or the blind status in FFVII as it never worked properly due to programing errors.



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mZuzek said:
potato_hamster said:

It's not crap. You literally believe your own personal opinion is fact. There's no point in conversing with you if you can't get over that hurdle because you can always loop back to treating your opinion as fact if anyone disagrees with you. it's a nonstarter.

Yet as pointless as you make this argument out to be, here you are still arguing.

I said my opinion was objective because I was analyzing the game design choices it impacted and how it did so - which is already far more subjective than "I want weapons forever" which is what most people complain about. If you have a decent argument for why the weapon durability system is a bad design choice, even if that's still just like an opinion (like mine), that would actually add something to the discussion.

As it stands, you're the only one here avoiding using any solid arguments.

So... an opinion that you've thought about for a long while and thorough;y becomes objective fact? Do you know how many years Hilter thought about the contents of "Mein Kamph" before writing it down? Come on man.

Here's the problem with me presenting any argument as to why I feel the durability system is a bad design choice - it's completely subjective, and you've clearly already made your mind up that the game couldn't work without it. You won't even budge on the idea that the weapon durability system as it is could function more effectively if it was implemented differnetly, so what is the point?




potato_hamster said:
mZuzek said:

Yet as pointless as you make this argument out to be, here you are still arguing.

I said my opinion was objective because I was analyzing the game design choices it impacted and how it did so - which is already far more subjective than "I want weapons forever" which is what most people complain about. If you have a decent argument for why the weapon durability system is a bad design choice, even if that's still just like an opinion (like mine), that would actually add something to the discussion.

As it stands, you're the only one here avoiding using any solid arguments.

So... an opinion that you've thought about for a long while and thorough;y becomes objective fact? Do you know how many years Hilter thought about the contents of "Mein Kamph" before writing it down? Come on man.

Here's the problem with me presenting any argument as to why I feel the durability system is a bad design choice - it's completely subjective, and you've clearly already made your mind up that the game couldn't work without it. You won't even budge on the idea that the weapon durability system as it is could function more effectively if it was implemented differnetly, so what is the point?


Yes but you might be able to change my mind if you have a good argument, or you might change another readers mind that has yet to post anything.  Plus who knows, maybe there is an ingame solution to your issue that you haven't discovered.  If you give us something then this conversation can progress or have a satisfying ending.  



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I imagine it's hard for reviewers to quantify frame-rate into their score, since opinions on the topic vary lot. Group A will argue that drops to 20fps like in BotW are grounds to drop the score, while others will say all 30fps titles should get lower scores for not being 60fps. Frame-pacing issues can make some people feel sick, while others don't notice at all. Some like locked, others variables, and so on and so forth.

Considering all that, the best a reviewer can do is just mention the drops exist, then score based on how much is affected them personally. If they think BotW is a 10 despite the drops, then they should give it a 10.



mZuzek said:
potato_hamster said:

So... an opinion that you've thought about for a long while and thorough;y becomes objective fact? Do you know how many years Hilter thought about the contents of "Mein Kamph" before writing it down? Come on man.

Here's the problem with me presenting any argument as to why I feel the durability system is a bad design choice - it's completely subjective, and you've clearly already made your mind up that the game couldn't work without it. You won't even budge on the idea that the weapon durability system as it is could function more effectively if it was implemented differnetly, so what is the point?

The point is having a decent argument. The goal of an argument is not to change one another's opinions (that simply won't happen), but to make each one understand the other's side.

I'm not sure you understood my side, because I'm not sure you want to. I tried my best. I have an opinion about the game design, and because it's based on actual design philosophies implemented in the game and the results and impact those things have on the experience, it's definitely more reliable than basing it on "what I want".

Either way, the weapon durability system complaints were always going to be inevitable because of the gaming community's biggest flaw - inflexibility. Gamers never want to adapt to a game, they want the game to adapt to them.

I understand your side perfectly. I just disagree with it. I do not agree that the weapon durability system in the game a) needs to exist or b) needs to exist as it is implemented. Weapon durability does not need to exist as a game mechanic, ever. I believe that all weapon durability systems (in all games) at best are only tolerable, and do nothing more than add a point of needless annoyance to the game. It doesn't ever make the game more enjoyable in my experience, and in my 50+ hours I've spent so far in BotW, I've learned to live with it by simply not caring about any weapon, and treating them all as the disposable bullshit they are. As long as I have 8-10 weapons in my inventory that are decent, I really don't bother trying to pick up more. I don't bother going after look. I no longer care about fighting random mobs of enemies because I'll probablt destroy a weapon or two, and that loot chest might have worse weapons than I have now. There's no point. Even then, I don't give a shit about loot because it's going to get destroyed in a couple of fights anyways. Nothing is special. Everything is disposable - except the Master Sword.

See the Master Sword spits in the face of any argument of how necessary weapon durability is for two main reasons: It cannot be broken, and it requires the player to be at a certain "level" (Must have 13 hearts) in order to obtain it. Yet somehow this doesn't break the game! Every argument you make about happening upon super awesome swords and how game breaking it would be if you could use them forever? Well you can't break the master sword. Oops. Every argument you can make about how the game would break if you couldn't just pick up and use super awesome swords as soon as you find them? Well you can't just pick up and use the master sword. Amazingly, BotW has both a weapon durability system, and a permanent, locked away weapon system within the same game, both somehow "don't break the game" yet you're arguing with me about how critical only one of those systems is, and about how the other one simply wouldn't work. Huh.

Why can't every weapon be treated like the master sword to a certain degree? Get to a point where all of your weapons are on cooldown and you have to throw one away. Require a certain number of hearts or stamina in order to pick up weapons the same way the master sword tests you. 

Hey look at that, a reasonable suggesstion of how to eliminate the durability system and not break the game - implementing a mechanic that's already in the game that you clearly have no problem with.

But if you insist on sticking with it, why can't the durability on all weapons be repaired or upgraded? Seriously. Are there no competent black smiths in Hyrule? Not only can they only make weapons that last through a handful of battles (except one), they're too incompetent to repair all but a handful? Why even make those handful of repairable weapons repairable if you're going to charge the player so much that it makes it not worth it.  At least give players the choice between throwing away weapons and going back to a town to repair them for a reasonable fee. Don't make that choice for them and force them to play a certain way.

Seriously, weapon durability mechanics are bad, and even as far as weapon durability mechanics go, the design of the mechanic in BotW it's one of the worst in a AAA game ever. If you enjoy playing BotW the way Nintendo insists you play it then it's fine and you think it works great because you trust that Nintendo's way is the best way, and you enjoy having Nintendo make that decision for you. I don't I like playing open world games the way I see fit, so it doesn't work for me, and it doesn't work for others, and we're not wrong in saying that this system is broken.



potato_hamster said:
mZuzek said:

The point is having a decent argument. The goal of an argument is not to change one another's opinions (that simply won't happen), but to make each one understand the other's side.

I'm not sure you understood my side, because I'm not sure you want to. I tried my best. I have an opinion about the game design, and because it's based on actual design philosophies implemented in the game and the results and impact those things have on the experience, it's definitely more reliable than basing it on "what I want".

Either way, the weapon durability system complaints were always going to be inevitable because of the gaming community's biggest flaw - inflexibility. Gamers never want to adapt to a game, they want the game to adapt to them.

I understand your side perfectly. I just disagree with it. I do not agree that the weapon durability system in the game a) needs to exist or b) needs to exist as it is implemented. Weapon durability does not need to exist as a game mechanic, ever. I believe that all weapon durability systems (in all games) at best are only tolerable, and do nothing more than add a point of needless annoyance to the game. It doesn't ever make the game more enjoyable in my experience, and in my 50+ hours I've spent so far in BotW, I've learned to live with it by simply not caring about any weapon, and treating them all as the disposable bullshit they are. As long as I have 8-10 weapons in my inventory that are decent, I really don't bother trying to pick up more. I don't bother going after look. I no longer care about fighting random mobs of enemies because I'll probablt destroy a weapon or two, and that loot chest might have worse weapons than I have now. There's no point. Even then, I don't give a shit about loot because it's going to get destroyed in a couple of fights anyways. Nothing is special. Everything is disposable - except the Master Sword.

See the Master Sword spits in the face of any argument of how necessary weapon durability is for two main reasons: It cannot be broken, and it requires the player to be at a certain "level" (Must have 13 hearts) in order to obtain it. Yet somehow this doesn't break the game! Every argument you make about happening upon super awesome swords and how game breaking it would be if you could use them forever? Well you can't break the master sword. Oops. Every argument you can make about how the game would break if you couldn't just pick up and use super awesome swords as soon as you find them? Well you can't just pick up and use the master sword. Amazingly, BotW has both a weapon durability system, and a permanent, locked away weapon system within the same game, both somehow "don't break the game" yet you're arguing with me about how critical only one of those systems is, and about how the other one simply wouldn't work. Huh.

Why can't every weapon be treated like the master sword to a certain degree? Get to a point where all of your weapons are on cooldown and you have to throw one away. Require a certain number of hearts or stamina in order to pick up weapons the same way the master sword tests you. 

Hey look at that, a reasonable suggesstion of how to eliminate the durability system and not break the game - implementing a mechanic that's already in the game that you clearly have no problem with.

But if you insist on sticking with it, why can't the durability on all weapons be repaired or upgraded? Seriously. Are there no competent black smiths in Hyrule? Not only can they only make weapons that last through a handful of battles (except one), they're too incompetent to repair all but a handful? Why even make those handful of repairable weapons repairable if you're going to charge the player so much that it makes it not worth it.  At least give players the choice between throwing away weapons and going back to a town to repair them for a reasonable fee. Don't make that choice for them and force them to play a certain way.

Seriously, weapon durability mechanics are bad, and even as far as weapon durability mechanics go, the design of the mechanic in BotW it's one of the worst in a AAA game ever. If you enjoy playing BotW the way Nintendo insists you play it then it's fine and you think it works great because you trust that Nintendo's way is the best way, and you enjoy having Nintendo make that decision for you. I don't I like playing open world games the way I see fit, so it doesn't work for me, and it doesn't work for others, and we're not wrong in saying that this system is broken.

Now let's take some deep breaths.....it's ok...we aren't gonna hurt you. You are in a safe place.   Now that that's out of the way, let me say one thing, u didn't actually give an example as to why durability is broken.  In the beginning you made a comment about how they are disposable and suggested you didn't like that.  But disposable weapons has been a thing for decades (example halo) and really isn't a big deal.  Apart from that you just went on and on about potential solutions.  But never did you actual provide and example as to how the durability is broken.  



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