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Forums - Politics Discussion - Doomsday Clock ticks 30 seconds closer to midnight, thanks to Trump

KingofTrolls said:

No, u are not ignorant - the simple fact that u are asking = u r not ignorant. I'm not native English speaker so the rest of my post may be a deep mess, but i will try to show u another point of view.

The rest of ur post - if I see it correctly - is like " there is no justification for war, never ever ". Sadly, all of the biggest and most famous civilizations on this planet were created only by conquer and wars. All of them, Roman Empire, Soviet Union, USA, British Empire etc. The one who won wars created a country, later the empire, the ones who lost their wars vanish. 

U are asking me where war was the only sensible option - everytime when the challengers do not get high enough place in the world order, that they deserves thanks to theirs military,economy,etc power. 

 

 

This justifies pretty much every war there ever was. But yes, you're obviously an anarchist, in which case I see where you're coming from.

sychobob said:

WHAT? Are you serious?

People were shot when they tried to flee to the West, Journalists, Artists and everybody else who spoke his opinion was send to work camps and were never seen again. There was no Opposition, just one political party to vote for who won with 90% or above.

What the hell of this was better than the freedom to go everywhere we want anytime we want, express anything we want without fear for our lifes?

Thinking anything in Russia is more democratic than we have in the West is an agenda or fiction but not true. I would dare standing in Berlin and shouting "Merkel is a bitch". Would you dare standing on the Red Place and shout "Putin is a bitch"? Who do you think of us two will have a longer life?

He's talking about Poland. It was part of eastern bloc, but not Soviet Union. 

Secondly, what does Putin and Russia have to do with it? 



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

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sychobob said:

1.WHAT? Are you serious?

2.People were shot when they tried to flee to the West, Journalists, Artists and everybody else who spoke his opinion was send to work camps and were never seen again. There was no Opposition, just one political party to vote for who won with 90% or above.

3.What the hell of this was better than the freedom to go everywhere we want anytime we want, express anything we want without fear for our lifes?

4.Thinking anything in Russia is more democratic than we have in the West is an agenda or fiction but not true. I would dare standing in Berlin and shouting "Merkel is a bitch". Would you dare standing on the Red Place and shout "Putin is a bitch"? Who do you think of us two will have a longer life?

1. Yes.

2. The most famous Polish journalist in USA, Max Kolonko emigrated to USA in 80's if I remember correctly. . He has uplodaded a video where he is talking about his migration and well - no guns'bullets involved. The socialist party in SocDems Block coutries ( dont mistake SocDem coutries with USSR ) were divided, and they have changed their politics as often as westenr goverment does. Or maybe are u talking about Berlin Wall ? It is another story. 

3. U could travel in Soc Bloc freely.Other countries - visa.

And yes, the lack of democratic elections had put the CCPR to the grave. 

4. Im not talking about Russia, im talking about my country Poland and guess what - my grandmother, who has ended her carrer in PRL decided to take " commy" pension because commies count it like 70% more than "liberals". BTW, about your freedom " Merkel is a bitch ". Well, i dont need this freedom at all.

Her pension is like 2400, the expected pension of mine is like 900. So much of my freedom with no money to survive. We had a super strong post-communist parties after Soviet fall ( Aleksander Kwaśniewski - elected 2 times etc )

Dont even try to tell me that anything has improved in our economy after Soviet falls. We are just more "competetive" because we make 40% less money. That's all.



KingofTrolls said:

No, u are not ignorant - the simple fact that u are asking = u r not ignorant. I'm not native English speaker so the rest of my post may be a deep mess, but i will try to show u another point of view.

The rest of ur post - if I see it correctly - is like " there is no justification for war, never ever ". Sadly, all of the biggest and most famous civilizations on this planet were created only by conquer and wars. All of them, Roman Empire, Soviet Union, USA, British Empire etc. The one who won wars created a country, later the empire, the ones who lost their wars vanish. 

U are asking me where war was the only sensible option - everytime when the challengers do not get high enough place in the world order, that they deserves thanks to theirs military,economy,etc power. 

Nah, that's not really a mess, although I don't really agree with it either. Thanks to your post, I just realized that in some cases, starting a war to gain independence could probably be a sensible thing (although I'm not entirely sure such a sensible war has ever been fought). But that still didn't convince me a war between nations ever makes sense. I mean, waging war for power sure makes sense (at least if the odds are in your favour), but that hardly is an acceptable reason, which is probably what I was actually looking for.



Zkuq said:

 

Nah, that's not really a mess, although I don't really agree with it either. Thanks to your post, I just realized that in some cases, starting a war to gain independence could probably be a sensible thing (although I'm not entirely sure such a sensible war has ever been fought). But that still didn't convince me a war between nations ever makes sense. I mean, waging war for power sure makes sense (at least if the odds are in your favour), but that hardly is an acceptable reason, which is probably what I was actually looking for.

Of course, if we talk about " average Joe" there is no and never will be any reason to war. So why the hell humankind's history is driven by wars ? Because every country is losing or gaining power and this is impossible to always keep a balance to satisty everybody. Even China, who has the world most peaceful culture is now messing up with Vietnam sea etc. Simple because Chinese people want to be rich as European are. Sadly, in China alone u got 2x more people than EU+USA. If u want to make all people as rich as " rich" people are, u need kinda like 8x the Earth's resources.



bdbdbd said:

This justifies pretty much every war there ever was. But yes, you're obviously an anarchist, in which case I see where you're coming from.

Anarchist ? Who knows. I just tells it like it is. Every dominant coutry always try to impose it's agenda on others,weaker countries since 2000 BC.



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KingofTrolls said:
COKTOE said:

France, The UK, and Italy all have miltaries considered to be better than Turkey. Same ballpark at VERY least..Poland has over 1000 tanks, almost 500 warplanes, and 5 subs. Germany, with all the constraints they have had placed on them is no slouch either..At any rate, NATO is far from the US and Turkey show.

The only advantage UK and France has compared to Turkey is nuclear warheads. The rest is win for Turkey big time.

For example Turkey - UK

active military personel - 410,500 - 150,000

aircraft - 1007 - 879

fighter aircraft - 207-91

tank strenght - 3,778- 407

towed artillery - 697-138 

fleet strenght - 194-76

 

Poland army has old Soviet shit as weaponry. Mig22 - aircraft with no radar !!!!!!!

Simple as that. Last serious upgrade was made in 1970. And yes, we have those awesome FF16 and Leopand tanks what dont fit to our logistic system and can be repaired only in Germany...

Poland is an outlier in my argument. There was never any doubt as to where they stand. As for the rest, I hope I have the time to respond today, or at all. It will be a PROJECT. :)



- "If you have the heart of a true winner, you can always get more pissed off than some other asshole."

KingofTrolls said:

Of course, if we talk about " average Joe" there is no and never will be any reason to war. So why the hell humankind's history is driven by wars ? Because every country is losing or gaining power and this is impossible to always keep a balance to satisty everybody. Even China, who has the world most peaceful culture is now messing up with Vietnam sea etc. Simple because Chinese people want to be rich as European are. Sadly, in China alone u got 2x more people than EU+USA. If u want to make all people as rich as " rich" people are, u need kinda like 8x the Earth's resources.

It's a little more complicated than that. Historically, countries haven't even existed the way you consider them today. You had kingdoms or city states, that typically had the capital or monarch to run it. Wars depended on the rulers hunger for power, but also army needed to be funded somehow, which was to attack and rob someone. As generals had lots of power on the army, the had to have something to do to prevent the generals from going into rebellion.

When we talk about "country", it's typically considered a unit that belongs to and is ruled by it's people. This is why nationalism ended the British empire, and why you sometimes see people saying USA isn't a country, for example. Nationalism and democracy go usually hand in hand, and when the people gets to decide, they don't go into war, because it's the people who's asses are on the line.

KingofTrolls said:

Anarchist ? Who knows. I just tells it like it is. Every dominant coutry always try to impose it's agenda on others,weaker countries since 2000 BC.

That's only partially true. Esentially you're talking about imperialism. Two nationalists next to each other are pretty much happy with border between the two.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

bdbdbd said:

It's a little more complicated than that. Historically, countries haven't even existed the way you consider them today. You had kingdoms or city states, that typically had the capital or monarch to run it.

When we talk about "country", it's typically considered a unit that belongs to and is ruled by it's people.

Of course, but every monarch have to gain his society aprrovement for rulling - if not, he is simple killed by his own people and replaced with another monarch. Another monarch " will solve the problems ".

Do u know what Damocles Sword is ?

Roman Emperors  created all those Circus for a reason.

City states ? Ancient Grecce was full of city-states and guess what - endless wars from the beginning to an end. The end of Ancient Grecce was done by Philip, the father of Alexander the great - he simply conquer all of the those city states at once.

 A democratic politic may not be elected in next election -  a monarch will be killed.

Also, one big thing that u miss here - everybody is happy at the beginning of war. Everybody is sure that this war will be a" easy ride " and we " finally will teach those bitches a lesson ".



Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Absolute nonsense. If anything, the clock should have been set back. I'm no Trump cheerleader but those idiots in the Obama admin were Sabre rattling with Russia (including Clinton) to the point where Putin was saying they are going past the point of no return. Thank God Trump was elected because we'd be a minute to midnight with that warmonger Clinton in charge.

This. What the hell is wrong with people? How was everyone so oblivious to how bad things were getting with US-Russian relations? Imminent nuclear war with US was the top news story in Russia (and some other European countries) for a couple weeks in October but the whole time the US population was completely oblivious because the media refused to report on it as obviously no one would vote for a world war (aka Hillary, at least that is what Russian officials claimed would happen if Hillary was elected). Russia was approving programs to provide rations for fallout shelters in Moscow, they were calling for family to return home and they had a nuclear war training program with 40 million people. This is why Russia likes Trump, cause he was the most likely way to avoid "Doomsday".

Like you said the clock should have been set back.  4 years of Trump changing EPA policies is no where near as damaging as Obama returning us to cold war level relations with Russia (Obama violated the agreement that ended the cold war last year). 



Doomsday clock is having a world war between America and Russia.

So no we aren't anywhere near that.