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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Digital Foundry: Scorpio Spec leak - "might suggest console isn't the "true" 4k console as MS claimed"

Snoopy said:
How do we know what the cpu is?

No one knows what the CPU is because in this article and white paper it makes no mention of it.  Everything so far is pure assumption besides a few tidbits of information that's pretty much the same as the E3 reveal.  The crazy part is how much assumption is being considred to be true with so little info.  A lot of people do not understand the intention of a technical white paper.  A technical white paper is designed to give someone information on things that can be accomplish with a piece of hardware or software or both.  Meaning that, just because it list pretty much all the things developers already do to increase resolution, performance  and graphical fidelity does not mean anything beyound just that.

In other words, no matter how much power or particular hardware underneath the Scorpio hood, all of these techniques are still viable ways for a developer to get the most bang for the hardware.  The problem with most people and also with developers is that they go the brute force route with everthing but forget to harness everything a piece of hardware can do to improve all aspects of their game.

So with that said, there isn't really anything to be either up or down about with this white paper because it really gives no more detail on Scorpio hardware then the E3 reveal.



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Barkley said:
Snoopy said:

We got 900p vs 1080p with .5 tflop difference. This is going to be 2 tflop difference in gpu.

Try using proportions, it's better then numerics as the difference between a 4.2TF and a 6TF GPU isn't as big as the difference between a 0.1TF and a 1.9TF GPU for example.

XBO - 1.31TF :  PS4 - 1.84TF      Difference: 40.4%

Pro - 4.2TF     :  Scorpio - 6TF     Difference: 42.8%

Do not forget that memory and CPU performance make a big differece in judging performance.  Since all of these parts will be improved judging the net performance of Scorpio over the Pro is harder to judge until more info is brought out.



Barkley said:
Snoopy said:

Percentage isn't very telling in this situation. For example, the difference between 1mm and 2mm is twice as much, but to us there is hardly a difference because its a mm. However, the difference between 1 mile and 2 mile is huge to us, despite being the same percentage difference between 1mm and 2mm. 

That analogy doesn't really work due to diminishing returns in games. The larger the numerical value we go in power the less noticeable an increase is. Whereas the larger you go in distance, well a mile is a mile. You're not looking at a screen counting pixels, it doesn't really get any more difficult to percieve.

The difference between 4K and some people are suggesting 1440p for pro is pretty huge for me actually way bigger than 900p and 1080p in clarity. Not to mention not just going to be resolution. Better textures, better lighting, better foliage, better performance. If you see pc gamers are able to achieve over consoles in textures and such you will see what I mean. Also, we are no where close to maxing what we see in pixels and the difference won't be diminishable for a while lol. I have to get an article, but it has to do with tv size. However, the difference still there and huge. Look at rise of the tomb raider one of the best looking games this generation and it is 4k on ps4 pro. Now imagine the same game on xbox one scorpio. 4k and better fps and textures.



Radek said:
Snoopy said:

The difference between 4K and some people are suggesting 1440p for pro is pretty huge for me actually way bigger than 900p and 1080p in clarity. Not to mention not just going to be resolution. Better textures, better lighting, better foliage, better performance. If you see pc gamers are able to achieve over consoles in textures and such you will see what I mean. Also, we are no where close to maxing what we see in pixels and the difference won't be diminishable for a while lol. I have to get an article, but it has to do with tv size, but the difference still there and huge.

You can't be serious... No way you can...

Do you expect 50% more powerful GPU to do 4K when Pro does 1440p?

Difference between 1440p and 4K is more than 200%

3.6 million (1440p) pixels compared to 8.3 million pixels (4K) ..

And even after all that you are even suggesting "Better textures, better lighting, better foliage, better performance"

Please come down on earth..

Better cpu and better ram. Also, as I said percentage doesn't play a role of deciding. Look at previous post



Snoopy said:
Barkley said:

Try using proportions, it's better then numerics as the difference between a 4.2TF and a 6TF GPU isn't as big as the difference between a 0.1TF and a 1.9TF GPU for example.

XBO - 1.31TF :  PS4 - 1.84TF      Difference: 40.4%

Pro - 4.2TF     :  Scorpio - 6TF     Difference: 42.8%

Percentage isn't very telling in this situation. For example, the difference between 1mm and 2mm is twice as much, but to us there is hardly a difference because its a mm. However, the difference between 1 mile and 2 mile is huge to us, despite being the same percentage difference between 1mm and 2mm. 2flops difference between xbox scorpio and ps4 pro vs .5 tflop difference between ps4 and xbox one.

It doesn't work like that, otherwise graphics would get exponentially better since every new die shrink would mean graphics become twice as good, over and over. In reality it's sort of the opposite, for you need exponentially more computational power to get the appearance of graphics improving on a linear rate.

Unless you want to believe the 200 GFLOPS difference between the Dreamcast and the PS3 yielded the same perceived graphical benefits as the PS4 Pro GPU against the very same GPU theoretically clocked a mere 4% slower.



 

 

 

 

 

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haxxiy said:
Snoopy said:

Percentage isn't very telling in this situation. For example, the difference between 1mm and 2mm is twice as much, but to us there is hardly a difference because its a mm. However, the difference between 1 mile and 2 mile is huge to us, despite being the same percentage difference between 1mm and 2mm. 2flops difference between xbox scorpio and ps4 pro vs .5 tflop difference between ps4 and xbox one.

It doesn't work like that, otherwise graphics would get exponentially better since every new die shrink would mean graphics become twice as good, over and over. In reality it's sort of the opposite, for you need exponentially more computational power to get the appearance of graphics improving on a linear rate.

Unless you want to believe the 200 GFLOPS difference between the Dreamcast and the PS3 yielded the same perceived graphical benefis as the PS4 Pro GPU against the very same GPU theoretically clocked a mere 4% slower.

The graphics have improve pretty well because there is no way I can see games like Uncharted 4  running on last gen consoles. I don't think there is a single better looking game than that to be honest outside of games on PC. More power doesn't mean just resolution. Also, it is up to the developers to make the most out of it. Just look how good god of war 2 is. I thought it looked better than a lot of ps3/360 games. Developers do play a huge key role in this.



Radek said:
Snoopy said:

Better cpu and better ram. Also, as I said percentage doesn't play a role of deciding. Look at previous post

CPU and RAM have nothing to do with achieving higher resolution and better details when game is still locked at 30 fps.

If game is only 1440p on the Pro it won't be native 4K on Scorpio and don't even bring "ultra details" talk

Now if game on Pro was 1620p or 1800p... then it could easily be native 4K on Scorpio on the same or SLIGHTLY higher details (probably texture quality and shawdows)

But there is games that are 4k on the pro. The cpu holds it back because CPU helps a lot with performance and fps. If the cpu is causing fps to dip, the developers will lower the resolution,textures,ect to get it at an acceptable point. I'll be back in an hour to debate some more.



celador said:
Hynad said:

Der, dat ting is a lot moar powaful dan the XBoax Won. 

That dumb enough?

sorry, that's still too technical for me to process

This whole exchange cracked me up!



Can this be considered the same generation? Even if MS forces cross console development for future games, if the console does not have the same components, same memory scheme and more importantly, needs some kind of software emulation to play original xbox one games this is a new gen console IMO, even if MS try hard to hide that, and making this sounds like a continue, trying to prevent some people from being angry...



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Sounds pretty good.