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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump winning is to be blamed only on the left

LivingMetal said:
Final-Fan said:

What is your evidence, or at the very least your reason for suspecting.....

UmmMMMmm... the final election results....?

Hey, I responded to this earlier, but you haven't answered yet.  If you would like to refuse to answer, that's your right, but I would prefer not to be left hanging. 
The post I made is only a few posts above this one. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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My hypothesis is that the left was divided into not just two groups, but three. There were the Hillary supporters who were obsessed with identity politics and collectivism. Didn't help that they kept overlooking Hillary's major red flags such as irresponsibility with classified information. The second group is the Bernie supporters. They were absolutely pissed when they found out that the DNC and Hillary colluded against Bernie, effectively subverting the democratic process. The third group is the libertarian left/classical liberals. This group consists of people who actually agree with a handful of the Democratic party's stances such as climate change, reproduction rights, scientific progress, and secularism. However, because they don't agree with the identity politics, the far left accuses the libertarian left of being racist, sexist, right-wingers.



Trump is not a typical Republican and had certain positions that appeal to people who voted Obama in 2008 and 2012.



Tigerlure said:

Why do we derisively refer to civil rights as identity politics these days? No one calls evangelicals fighting for the overturning of Roe v Wade identity politics. 

 

 

I think idenity politics  is a political staregy...

 

It is is pretty much basing your entire poltical appeal  to appeal to a certain group at the expense of appealing to other groups.

Its not a sucessfull straegy as Hillary has shown. 



Nem said:
irstupid said:

First, we are not a Democracy. We are a Republic. Always have been.

Second, more votes does not equal the will of the people. The U.S. is huge. It is spread out. Yet the majority live in a FEW clustered cities. If we were a pure democracy and went vote majority wins, the presidential canidates woudl spend their entire time sitting in New York, LA, Houston and Chicago. They would "buy" their votes with campaign promises that woudl solely benefit the people who live in those cities.

I have heard what you have said on the subject before and i disagree. Thats not what history says, especially if you look up under WW2.

Regardless of tactics, you cannot at your own discretion decide that one person should be more valuable than another. That is not democratic or egalitarian. Its is therefore socially and moraly reprehensable.

No one just decides at their own discretion, but we have, as a government, decided that in certain places, it is more important to give smaller states an unproportional amount of authority, even if that means making some people have "less representation." Perhaps the most obvious example is the assignment of two senators to each state, regardless of size or population. The US system of government is not meant to be entirely egalitarian; it's designed to balance the desires of individuals with the desires of the states. The way the president is elected is a reflection of this; a compromise between sheer popular vote and each state having an equal say.

I'd be curious, if you are for a popular vote determining things entirely, would you also be for abolishing the Senate, as it too makes the wishes of people in smaller states "more valuable" than those that live in larger?



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LadyJasmine said:
Trump is not a typical Republican and had certain positions that appeal to people who voted Obama in 2008 and 2012.

I'm not seeing Trump as a Republican at all, but a whole different breed of monster. Populist, wanting to use his time as president to be a king-like figure. Trump has been so used to being the boss for so long, that he's trying to run the country like that of a CEO, wanting results now now now... just not caring who gets burned to keep him at the top. Just has to have those quarterly results.



Final-Fan said:
LivingMetal said:

UmmMMMmm... the final election results....?

Hey, I responded to this earlier, but you haven't answered yet.  If you would like to refuse to answer, that's your right, but I would prefer not to be left hanging. 
The post I made is only a few posts above this one. 

The election results gave me the answer that I need. Clinton won the popular vote. It's that simple. You want to call misunderstanding, fine but I disagree. And I meant no ill intent when I spoke to the previous poster. I just thought those two statements contradicted one another. That's all it really was, and that's where I stand. Agree to disagree. But if you want to make a bigger deal out of it than it really is, then that's all you. So I'm not going to give you the answer that you want because it's just not there.



I always thought it was the electoral college to blame. The popular vote was Hillary's but somehow, she didn't win.



LivingMetal said:
Final-Fan said:

Hey, I responded to this earlier, but you haven't answered yet.  If you would like to refuse to answer, that's your right, but I would prefer not to be left hanging. 
The post I made is only a few posts above this one. 

The election results gave me the answer that I need. Clinton won the popular vote. It's that simple. You want to call misunderstanding, fine but I disagree. And I meant no ill intent when I spoke to the previous poster. I just thought those two statements contradicted one another. That's all it really was, and that's where I stand. Agree to disagree. But if you want to make a bigger deal out of it than it really is, then that's all you. So I'm not going to give you the answer that you want because it's just not there.

The primary answer I want is to explain WHY you think those two statements contradict each other, so if the answer "just isn't there", which is to say you cannot articulate why you think they contradict each other, then I guess there really isn't anywhere else to go from there. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Shadow1980 said:
irstupid said:

First, we are not a Democracy. We are a Republic. Always have been.

I've gone over this in other threads, but to keep it short and simple, we are both a democracy and a republic. We have free and fair elections (for the most part, anyway), and we have a head of state that is not a monarch or some similar hereditary figure. Except for Thailand and Libya (because of circumstances leading a government that is not constitutionally defined), every nation on Earth can be classified into two broad categories: "Republics and Monarchies," and "Democracies and Not Democracies." The lines can be blurred with the latter, but generally we can make a distinction between a republic like the U.S. that has free and fair elections and a republic like China that makes no pretenses of having its citizens have any input on who represents them in government.

Second, more votes does not equal the will of the people. The U.S. is huge. It is spread out. Yet the majority live in a FEW clustered cities. If we were a pure democracy and went vote majority wins, the presidential canidates woudl spend their entire time sitting in New York, LA, Houston and Chicago. They would "buy" their votes with campaign promises that woudl solely benefit the people who live in those cities.

Even if you include their entire Metropolitan Statistical Areas, those four cities make up only 15.5% of the nation's population. You can't ignore five out of every six voters and expect to win with a popular vote. There are plenty of cases in both America and elsewhere where candidates have visited less populated areas. Hell, Trump himself visited my hometown during the primaries despite it having only 23,000 people in a state with nearly 5 million people. With a national popular vote system, every vote counts equally, and in a close enough election you have to scramble for every vote you can, whether you're a Republican trying to boost turnout in California or a Democrat trying to get more supporters in Nebraska to turn out.

On the other hand, the Electoral College makes it to where candidates can ignore upwards of 70% of the population as it makes only the dozen or so swing states the only places candidates have any incentive to invest time, money, and interest in. In recent elections, just five states—Florida, N. Carolina, Virginia, Ohio, and Pennsylvania— have gotten a significant majority of the candidate's time and money. Why? Because they're competitive and highly-populated, and thus the candidates have tremendous incentive to try and swing voters to them in those states. Big states like California and Texas or small states like Vermont and Wyoming are completely irrelevant. I can guarantee you that once Arizona and Texas start to become competitive, you'll see candidates start to take a huge interest in them after decades of ignoring them.

Except that if the candidates would spend their time sitting in the big cities, their voting percentage there would be higher, whereas smaller areas would just vote less. Also, you have to keep in mind, that when there's two options to choose from, the votes are close to 50/50 anyway. However, both of you point out why populism is needed.

If popular vote had counted, don't you guys think Trump had cmpaigned in states he did not see a chance of winning in these elections?

Bigger problem than the electoral college is the de facto two-party system US has.



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