By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft - Project Scorpio Official Thread: New Video On Forza

taus90 said:

I m sorry isnt one of the biggest reason for shrinking chips fabrication process is to bring better performance, better cooling, Lower TDP (for better Clock Rate), Huh didnt knew people were only doing to just save space. Or are you saying MS might have deliberatly choose not take advantage of FinFet design which theoritically doubles the advantage of the similar size node. Either I am learning something new out here or CPU sounds horribly inefficient for a 14nm finfet to be running at 2.3 vs 2.1 PRO (which i assume is 16nm or maybe 28nm based on the heat and noise pro generates).

It's not quite clear cut for CPUs. The more serial design with few cores doesn't benefit nearly as much from die shrinks and transistor count increases.

See, the 14 nm Core i7 6700k CPU, which is clocked at 4 GHz, versus the 22 nm Core i7 4770k at 3.5 GHz. Clock speed is around 15% higher - but power consumption is some 10% higher as well. If it weren't for the new microarchitecture you could be mislead to believe both are variants of the same chip.

If it weren't the case, CPU clocks could increase like 50-70% every die shrink, for the power consumption of similar designs at the same clocks would have halved. So yes, the PS4 PRO, which is most definitely 16 nm, might be actually consuming more power with the 2.1 GHz Jaguar than the 1.6 GHz standard PS4 CPU.



 

 

 

 

 

Around the Network
Mafioso said:
Ruler said:

Pretty disappointing if i just look at the specs. Just like with the PS4 Pro the CPU with 2.3 Ghz again is pretty underpowered unlike what many people predicted here, or in comparison what you would except from MS as they had quite some time to see the results of the PS4 Pro for months.

Now again like with everything Microsoft related there is much emphasise on the DX. The theory has to be seen in practice for all the games, what DF isnt pointing out is that Forza Horizon 6 is already a Windows 10 store optimized game so its pretty obvious why it should run so good or being able to be ported in 2 days.

PS4 Pro's limiting factor/bottleneck is not the CPU, is its total design.

Its the fact that it barely has any more memory bandwidth that the original PS4 to task it with twice the GPU. Its not a balanced system.

Also DF touches on the the custom GPU Command Controller/ DX12 hardware baked into the design that will result in half the CPU cost DX12 rendered titles currently  use. 

Custom hardware design around rendering at its finest. 

PC hardware is VERY inefficient with graphics hardware as rendering is not its primary design, lack of unified memory, etc...

Scorpio wont be a 1080ti killer, but they could very well extrapolate similar graphics grunt from this machine as a 980Ti/GTX1070 plus more in a DX12 optimized environment.


Devs already could use the CU for cpu task as well. Ubisoft dev did some benchmark and last gen PS3 cpu was much faster. CPU is a huge bottleneck in these consoles. Also I doubt devs will bother to utlize the hardware as most if not all games will use Xbone, PS4 as base. Tomb raider was one of the exception and Microsoft will have to partner with some to patch the game at least on launch. May be games released by Microsoft.



 

KingofTrolls said:
Pemalite said:

There is still potential room for it to be Puma (Which is "evolved Jaguar") from what I read on Digital Foundry.

I think that if it's Puma inside, they would show it now, simply to get " better than a Pro " effect. Of course fingers crossed that it will happen, but chances are slim.

Actually Im disappointed, with that 12 GB and other stuff the bootleneck would bite them in the ass badly, more than Jaguar in Pro.

Yeah the chances are slim, not doubting that.
Microsoft has done allot of work in ensuring that the CPU is going to be doing less work, so that's a big plus, means more CPU time for games.

exclusive_console said:

Devs already could use the CU for cpu task as well. Ubisoft dev did some benchmark and last gen PS3 cpu was much faster. CPU is a huge bottleneck in these consoles. Also I doubt devs will bother to utlize the hardware as most if not all games will use Xbone, PS4 as base. Tomb raider was one of the exception and Microsoft will have to partner with some to patch the game at least on launch. May be games released by Microsoft.

Cell was only faster in a few specific cases such as iterative refinement.
Jaguar is indeed superior overall, especially in things like Integer.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Updated both of the OPs with all the new information we got today.



haxxiy said:
taus90 said:

I m sorry isnt one of the biggest reason for shrinking chips fabrication process is to bring better performance, better cooling, Lower TDP (for better Clock Rate), Huh didnt knew people were only doing to just save space. Or are you saying MS might have deliberatly choose not take advantage of FinFet design which theoritically doubles the advantage of the similar size node. Either I am learning something new out here or CPU sounds horribly inefficient for a 14nm finfet to be running at 2.3 vs 2.1 PRO (which i assume is 16nm or maybe 28nm based on the heat and noise pro generates).

It's not quite clear cut for CPUs. The more serial design with few cores doesn't benefit nearly as much from die shrinks and transistor count increases.

See, the 14 nm Core i7 6700k CPU, which is clocked at 4 GHz, versus the 22 nm Core i7 4770k at 3.5 GHz. Clock speed is around 15% higher - but power consumption is some 10% higher as well. If it weren't for the new microarchitecture you could be mislead to believe both are variants of the same chip.

If it weren't the case, CPU clocks could increase like 50-70% every die shrink, for the power consumption of similar designs at the same clocks would have halved. So yes, the PS4 PRO, which is most definitely 16 nm, might be actually consuming more power with the 2.1 GHz Jaguar than the 1.6 GHz standard PS4 CPU.

Yes! definitely the fab results will varry if you compare two different generation of Processors on different node designs and microarchitectures, but if the same generation undergo die shrink, which in this case jaguar, there will always be improvements.  

And the only reason i doubt Ps4 Pro to have 28nm Fab is coz of the timeline, the 16nm release from AMD and PS4 Pro development doesnt allow that. sure they could build around that node and slap it on closer to the release, but that put them on the risk of production yield and quality test. Oh and Sony released the tech detail on PS4 slim to be 16nm and but said nothing on the PS4 pro, so even that make me doubtful



Around the Network

With M$ probably going all out, the Switch having its first full showing, and Sony being Sony, this E3 is going up be crazy!

Looks like I'm getting a Scorpio.

-Scorpio in the game room.
-Xbox One S moves to the living room.
-1TB Xbox moves to the bedroom.
-500GB XBO moves out. Probably gonna trade it in.



Point of view of a dev (anonymised) from an IRC channel :

the scorpio has a dedicated hardware unit for sending draw calls to the gpu?
interesting
hmm, does it not have a unified memory architecture?
will it be akin to threading your rendering code, albeit on an entirely different processor?
cause if you have to feed that processor from the cpu, they didnt solve the bottleneck, only moved it

lol this digital foundry article
it claims that not being bound by draw calls will make the scorpio gpu perform on par with a 1070
uuuuuuuuuuuuuh there are ways to mitigate your draw calls, like combining vertex buffers into a large array
and once you get past starving your gpu, there are several other factors into performance. I very much doubt that claim.
reading further on this, its not something that would hinder backwards compatibility at all
its just like I figured, its running your rendering thread on a secondary processor
you basically are going to treat that hardware like a core

ms is bragging that their gpu commands are "based off of dx12."
well duh, thats how things like vulkan and dx12 work, they expose the intermediary language directly without an abstraction layer
you write your own spir-v translation
thats, like, the entire point of dx12 and vulkan
right on schedule, im seing some hilarious overreacting to "dx12 on da mf CPU!!!!1!1!11"
microsoft talking about dx12 being built into the gpu is akin to goodyear bragging that streets are made for the shape of their tires
yeah, their tires and everyone elses tires





Vasto said:

I have noticed allot of Xbox "personalities" have the Original Xbox logo as their twitter display picture and have for awhile now. - Coincidence?

Original Xbox:


Xbox 360:


Xbox One:




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

https://youtube.com/watch?v=EYfj0Ah0SfI&feature=youtu.be

New Forza Video taking more about how it ran on Scorpio. I found interesting that devs are seeing similar results