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Forums - Gaming - Self destructive graphics arms race is wiping out game devs.

 

Have games become to demanding, too expensive to make?

Yes, and it is a self-des... 182 69.73%
 
No, give me 4K even if it bankrupts them. 79 30.27%
 
Total:261

Mehhh...

Maybe some devs tried too hard and invested too much money they never had the chance to get back and closed but I'm sure that we wouldn't have more people working in this industry if many companies wouldn't try to push for graphics.

We have many many people working for companies not pushing for graphics and we have many working for those who do. That's the good thing about the market nowadays, you have both and with that we see a huge number of game devs and employees.

I doubt we would have even more people working in this industry if EA, Ubisoft and some other companies wouldn't push for better graphics. Maybe we would have some more devs but these devs would have a smaller number of employees.

And a company like Crytek is in parts only really a big thing because of their graphics. If they fucked something up the last years doesn't change that they would have never even opened all the different studios without them releasing games like Crysis. 

We have probably also lost 90% of all car manufacturers which opened in the first 20 years when that market got big. That also doesn't mean much except for that it's a pretty normal thing that new industries often lose a lot of those who tried to be part of it and only a few big ones stay alive. 



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Hapuc12 said:
Ljink96 said:

Greed is greater than the need to make more jobs. If a company can spend as little as possible and make as much as possible, they will. That's what's really is destroying America as we speak. I know it's optimistic to think that new jobs will come of machines taking over jobs that others used to do, but often times that never happens. The retort is usually, "well the machines will create jobs for those who repair the machines" when reparing in this case is increasing RAM, GPU and software updates. So I guess there would be more jobs for software engineers but not for 3D modelers or not as many 3D modelers. Programmers, animators, those guys are still in high demand and those jobs are still there. I'm referring mostly to 3D artists who want to focus on realism. 

But as you said, it all comes down to the fact that there is always room for well seasoned professionals. I don't consider myself a Luddite necessarily, I just tend to be hard on myself so that I might be good enough to get into the market and know what the hell I'm doing. I'm seriously also considering going indie. I can do 3D art, I can do simple programming and there's helpful programs like unity and unreal that streamlines simple node based programming so that's the road I'm thinking of taking. Becoming a simple 1 man team or a team of no less than 5. Again, I'm just re evaluating my options as bigger companies are biting the bullet on costly HD development. 

Dude dude trust me don't go with indie games head on when you enter try to find a job in a studio no matter which one to get experience,because trust me when you find a job in this industry you will move a lot at least my friend did that,you will need to build up experience learn how to hit dead line on a budget all of that,then you make your own indie games or open your studio.

That guy told you too enter PC as soon as possible in my opinion go with Consoles but you can go with PC doesn't matter but do it where you have a budget because when you are making indie games 70/30% even more now with all these indie games coming out is that you will fail and that could kill your studio or anything else.

But all in all Start working with a studio to build experience and be in a studio where there is a good budget better to fail together then to fail your self you could set yourself for a big dissapointment.

I'm actually thinking of Kickstarter though. Some colleagues suggested that I start one. The issue I have with joining game studios today is that the ones in the US make games that I don't care to make. If I don't care about the games being made, I'm not going to put my effort into it and whatever work I do for that studio isn't going to be to their liking. 

Making something simple with meat to it is the best chance for an indie developer. To me, that's more appealing than working at a studio that makes AAA games that wants to focus on graphics. I'm thinking of starting up something small just to start. Even if I have to be the only developer on the team.



Ljink96 said:
Hapuc12 said:

Dude dude trust me don't go with indie games head on when you enter try to find a job in a studio no matter which one to get experience,because trust me when you find a job in this industry you will move a lot at least my friend did that,you will need to build up experience learn how to hit dead line on a budget all of that,then you make your own indie games or open your studio.

That guy told you too enter PC as soon as possible in my opinion go with Consoles but you can go with PC doesn't matter but do it where you have a budget because when you are making indie games 70/30% even more now with all these indie games coming out is that you will fail and that could kill your studio or anything else.

But all in all Start working with a studio to build experience and be in a studio where there is a good budget better to fail together then to fail your self you could set yourself for a big dissapointment.

I'm actually thinking of Kickstarter though. Some colleagues suggested that I start one. The issue I have with joining game studios today is that the ones in the US make games that I don't care to make. If I don't care about the games being made, I'm not going to put my effort into it and whatever work I do for that studio isn't going to be to their liking. 

Making something simple with meat to it is the best chance for an indie developer. To me, that's more appealing than working at a studio that makes AAA games that wants to focus on graphics. I'm thinking of starting up something small just to start. Even if I have to be the only developer on the team.

Whatever you like dude i just said you should go with something safer when people set them self up high but when they fail it's pretty bad just look at Mighty No 9 and what happened with that.

And trust me most studios take there time with gameplay and story then graphics there are few examples like Mirrors edge Catalyst And Crysis 2,3 Graphics powerhouses but sucked because Gameplay and story sucked everyone still knows Gameplay is king and Story is the Queen to put it like that.

Everyone can make a graphicly good game but when it lacks Gameplay and Story it's just meh and trust me most studios work on Gameplay and Story no matter how people try to spin it because when the game comes out when people review it most points go to Gameplay and Story graphics is just icing on the Cake.



BraLoD said:
Rab said:

Yeah they do, Nintendo have a developer program which provides software (like Unity) and middleware to developers, allows developers to self-publish, and set their own price for their games in the Nintendo eShop. The dev kits are also free to 3rd parties

Many 3rd parties have had their start on Nintendo systems like shovel knight, sales particulay in the Wii era have seen some amazing sales, it can often depend on the genre 

 

Shovel Knight was a kickstarter project and was available day one on PC.

You focused on one small point of the whole message, what about the rest?

SK did do very well on the Wii U anyway, launching on Wii U and PC at the same time (it was a console exclusive), and as for kickstarters Wii U was included in many 

Wii had even greater success with 3rd partys, this sites software sales have ample evidence of that, but again that can often depend on genre   

You originally wanted to know if Nintendo helped 3rd parties, the answer is they did, and many smaller 3rd parties took advantage of that help, just check Wii U's indie scene ( http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1172907 ), and Wii's software sales in some of it's core genres on this site  



SonytendoAmiibo said:
The thing that blows my mind is that 91 billion dollars was made in 2016, yet all these devs are going under. Where is all that money going?

The $91 billion number refers to gross sales.  Only a tiny fraction of that is profit.  Theoretically, the industry could experience sales of $500 billion, but make zero money.  

In reality, some of the big guys are profitable.  So, of that $91 billion, there was probably a few billion in profit "made" by developers and publishers. 

Lets think about something here.  If a game costs $100MM to develop, publish, distribute, and promote, that means the publisher needs to get $100MM back just to break even.  There's also the retailer that has to get paid.  So, Gamestop isn't paying $60 for games that they sell at $60.  Typically, retailers are paying about 50% of the selling price to acquire the goods that they sell.  In gaming, I imagine the retailers pay a bit more than that though.  So, lets say they pay 66% of the retail price to the publisher.  So, on a $60 game the publisher sees $40.  Just to break even, on a game with a total budget of $100mm, they must sell 2.5 million copies *at full retail* just to break even.  

Of course, many sales do not take place at that full retail price, once the game is 3-6 weeks old.  So, the real break even is probably more like 3-3.5 million units sold just to break even.  Then there's the fact that companies don't exist to break even.  They have to make a decent profit, in order to justify their existence and raise money for the next project.  That sounds like 4 million units of our theoretical game sold, just to turn a profit of a few million dollars on that $100MM investment.  

These big numbers are the reason that we see annual iterations on some franchises, and the disappearance of so many studios.  New IP is risky.  Bigtime.  



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I absolutely agree with this, and I think it has been true since the start of the seventh generation of consoles. That is basically a decade now.



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VAMatt said:
SonytendoAmiibo said:
The thing that blows my mind is that 91 billion dollars was made in 2016, yet all these devs are going under. Where is all that money going?

The $91 billion number refers to gross sales.  Only a tiny fraction of that is profit.  Theoretically, the industry could experience sales of $500 billion, but make zero money.  

In reality, some of the big guys are profitable.  So, of that $91 billion, there was probably a few billion in profit "made" by developers and publishers. 

Lets think about something here.  If a game costs $100MM to develop, publish, distribute, and promote, that means the publisher needs to get $100MM back just to break even.  There's also the retailer that has to get paid.  So, Gamestop isn't paying $60 for games that they sell at $60.  Typically, retailers are paying about 50% of the selling price to acquire the goods that they sell.  In gaming, I imagine the retailers pay a bit more than that though.  So, lets say they pay 66% of the retail price to the publisher.  So, on a $60 game the publisher sees $40.  Just to break even, on a game with a total budget of $100mm, they must sell 2.5 million copies *at full retail* just to break even.  

Of course, many sales do not take place at that full retail price, once the game is 3-6 weeks old.  So, the real break even is probably more like 3-3.5 million units sold just to break even.  Then there's the fact that companies don't exist to break even.  They have to make a decent profit, in order to justify their existence and raise money for the next project.  That sounds like 4 million units of our theoretical game sold, just to turn a profit of a few million dollars on that $100MM investment.  

These big numbers are the reason that we see annual iterations on some franchises, and the disappearance of so many studios.  New IP is risky.  Bigtime.  

 

And it takes a fraction of that $100 million to make a mobile game for an installed base of a billion smart phones. $1 dollar from each of those billion smart phones is $1 billion dollars. Less risk and money from investors with a far greater profit margin making games for mobile devices.

 



   

Hey! They got SONY on my amiibo! Wait a minute. Two great gaming tastes that game great together!

Switch FC: SW-0398-8858-1969

Well it is the demand, Ubisoft tried with bringing rayman back. Secondly we also expect better looking games...The next main pokemon/mario/Zelda etc must be looking better.






konnichiwa said:
Well it is the demand, Ubisoft tried with bringing rayman back. Secondly we also expect better looking games...The next main pokemon/mario/Zelda etc must be looking better.

 

I'm starting to think that Nintendo deliberately kept their home consoles lower power then the competition while they waited for mobile chips to catch up performance wise. That way they would not be backtracking when they make their way to mobile devices like the Switch. Nintendo is perfectly fine with last gen performance and will profit better with games made for those specs.

   

Hey! They got SONY on my amiibo! Wait a minute. Two great gaming tastes that game great together!

Switch FC: SW-0398-8858-1969

Don't worry, in a few years this won't be an issue anymore. Great graphics won't be reason enough to sell any game very soon because the difference in AAA graphic presentation and indie will be indeterminably minute.