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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Nintendo Switch model is expensive for us and cheap for Nintendo. Hardware and Software.

Marcusius said:

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PS2 = Using their own custom made CPU.

Xbox = Using Celeron CPU with a built-in Nvidia GPU Gforce 2 (Power house at the time).

GameCube = 1st using an IBM cpu with ATi video card (Power house at the time).

Winner = Ps2.

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The Xbox was using a Pentium/Celeron Hybrid. In that it used the same amount of cache as the Celeron, but it had the associativity of the Pentium 3, it also used the Pentium 3's faster Frontside bus of 133mhz when Celeron typically used 66Mhz or 100Mhz.

The GPU is also not a Geforce 2. The Geforce 2 was mostly a fixed-function design, the Xbox had programmable Pixel shaders.
It was infact a modified Geforce 3.

The Gamecube's GPU was made by a company called ArtX. That just happened to get purchased by ATI just before the Gamecubes release and thus an agreement also took place to throw an ATI sticker on every box.

CrazyGPU said:

I don´t agree. Let say Nvidia architecture can make a 6 Tflop graphic card as capable of an AMD 8 Tflop card. That can make a 50% advantage for Nvidia, but Im saying that at the same time Sony launches a console with 4200 Gigaflops and Microsoft is preparing a 6000 Gigaflop machine, Nintendo is going for a 400 one while docked. 

On the cost issue, Object complexity, texture sharpness and lighting is far more time demanding in 1080p and 4k than it is at 480p or 720p. As more time is more paid hours, its far more costly. Also Nintendo confirmed that.

Increasing a games resolution changes nothing about a games cost. Otherwise the PC would be the most expensive platform on Earth to develop for, which flies in the face that it has the most indie developers. (The PC has resolutions of 11,520x2160 if you so wanted, which makes 1920 x 1080 seem insignificant.)

What you are talking about is higher quality assets.

So you aren't actually disagreeing with me at all.

CrazyGPU said:
On the tegra issue, The fact that its Tegra doesnt tell you the hole picture.  They could made a Pascal tegra made at 16 nm instead of 20nm with more transistors and less power consumption. Also they can put more than 1 graphic core, they can have more shader processors, its a custom Tegra.  Its just they went cheap. Its cheaper to put old tech on the SOC. Look at Sonys CPU, they are using jaguar cores, not very different than Tegra in performance, but eight of them. And what did they do with the pro GPU. They modified the old one a bit, its Polaris now, and they doubled the graphic cores.  Nvidia could do that with tegra, after all, tegra uses PC graphic technology.

 

16nm is 20nm. 16nm is a rebranding of 20nm, but with the inclusion of Finfet.

It's also not a custom tegra. It is Semi-custom. - Even then I doubt the customization was anything more than an alteration to some minor logic.

CrazyGPU said:
Now , lets forget about CPU teraflops for now, How the CPU is feed by the memory bandwith?

PS3= 22 GBytes/s
SWITCH = 25.6 GBytes/s
PS4 = 176 GB/s.

Does that tell someone what kind of textures and lighting can we spect from SWITCH? Again. Its a great hanheld, but don´t sell it like a desktop console.

The Switch has closer to 20GB/s of bandwidth due to the DRAM clock decrease.

However, it also has more bandwidth than the raw number imply due to hardware-based compression that the Playstation 3 and Playstation 4 do not have.

Plus, Nintendo is marketing it as both a handheld and a console. So it's both.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Seventizz said:
One can argue that nintendo's creativity is in a rut. MK8 wasn't much different than any previous game and Mario is showing signs of aging.

Actually, I think we're seeing more of Nintendo's creative side as time goes on. They're not using the same formulas and are finally creating new IP's and different concepts to freshen up existing series.

 



 

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12/22/2016- Made a bet with Ganoncrotch that the first 6 months of 2017 will be worse than 2016. A poll will be made to determine the winner. Loser has to take a picture of them imitating their profile picture.

Seventizz said:
One can argue that nintendo's creativity is in a rut. MK8 wasn't much different than any previous game and Mario is showing signs of aging.

I would say Splatoon, Tomodachi Life, Super Mario Maker, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Star Fox Zero, Codename STEAM, Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, Kirby and the Rainbow Curse were all creative games that released in the last two or so years.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
Seventizz said:
One can argue that nintendo's creativity is in a rut. MK8 wasn't much different than any previous game and Mario is showing signs of aging.

I would say Splatoon, Tomodachi Life, Super Mario Maker, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Star Fox Zero, Codename STEAM, Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, Kirby and the Rainbow Curse were all creative games that released in the last two or so years.

Star Fox Zero is hell no uncreative. But the rest, yea. 

In fact - I'm going to go as far as to say that Nintendo is actually taking the criticism of the 2D Mario games and their unoriginality seriously and are trying to erase the "New Super..." series by making the plain 2D Mario a phone title and making the creative Super Mario Maker a dedicated console game. Will they release one on the Switch if the console is super successful? Probably...but I wouldn't be surprising if it was just like a small downloadable title that was used to hype up Super Mario Maker 2.0. 

Their RPG division in particular is legendary. 



AngryLittleAlchemist said:
zorg1000 said:

I would say Splatoon, Tomodachi Life, Super Mario Maker, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Star Fox Zero, Codename STEAM, Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, Kirby and the Rainbow Curse were all creative games that released in the last two or so years.

Star Fox Zero is hell no uncreative. But the rest, yea. 

In fact - I'm going to go as far as to say that Nintendo is actually taking the criticism of the 2D Mario games and their unoriginality seriously and are trying to erase the "New Super..." series by making the plain 2D Mario a phone title and making the creative Super Mario Maker a dedicated console game. Will they release one on the Switch if the console is super successful? Probably...but I wouldn't be surprising if it was just like a small downloadable title that was used to hype up Super Mario Maker 2.0. 

Their RPG division in particular is legendary. 

With Star Fox Zero they tried to do something new with the controls and ability to have two seperate perspectives. It backfired but was creative thinking nonetheless.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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zorg1000 said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

Star Fox Zero is hell no uncreative. But the rest, yea. 

In fact - I'm going to go as far as to say that Nintendo is actually taking the criticism of the 2D Mario games and their unoriginality seriously and are trying to erase the "New Super..." series by making the plain 2D Mario a phone title and making the creative Super Mario Maker a dedicated console game. Will they release one on the Switch if the console is super successful? Probably...but I wouldn't be surprising if it was just like a small downloadable title that was used to hype up Super Mario Maker 2.0. 

Their RPG division in particular is legendary. 

With Star Fox Zero they tried to do something new with the controls and ability to have two seperate perspectives. It backfired but was creative thinking nonetheless.

I disagree. Gimmicks and creativity aren't necessarily exclusive from one another but in the case of Star Fox Zero it was them being so unimaginative that they thought the only way to make the game feel unique was use a terrible control scheme. Remakes of Star Fox 64? So imaginitive. 



SpokenTruth said:
CrazyGPU said:

Maxwell Nvidia Architecture, introduced in february 2014. A 3 years old architecture. 

PS4 is based on first generation GCN technology from AMD making it 5 years old as of January.  

But PS4 is 3 years old, besides that, it had a custom soc with the power of a mid range PC graphic card, not a tablet soc like Switch. PS4 pro just lauched this year with new AMD Polaris architecture and more than twice the graphic power built in 16 nm. And Scorpio will probably bring AMD VEGA.

And the main point is, Switch is mostly a tablet, so it really needs new transistor technology to bring power down on the go. So putting in it old Maxwell at 20 nm is not going to help. They went for cheap stuff, maximizing profits. Fanboys will buy anyway.



CrazyGPU said:

But PS4 is 3 years old, besides that, it had a custom soc with the power of a mid range PC graphic card, not a tablet soc like Switch. PS4 pro just lauched this year with new AMD Polaris architecture and more than twice the graphic power built in 16 nm. And Scorpio will probably bring AMD VEGA.

And the main point is, Switch is mostly a tablet, so it really needs new transistor technology to bring power down on the go. So putting in it old Maxwell at 20 nm is not going to help. They went for cheap stuff, maximizing profits. Fanboys will buy anyway.

The Playstation 4's age is irrellevent. It is derived from half-decade old technology today.

Polaris is based on Graphics Core Next 4.0, which is an evolutionary update over prior designs, dating back... You guessed it. Half a decade.
Heck a large portion of AMD's 400 series lineup is rebadged older Graphics Core Next 1.0 and 2.0 parts destined for the OEM markets.

If Vega drops it will either be added on top of the 400 series stack or usher in the 500 series, again, mostly being rebadged parts stemming all the way back to Southern Islands/Graphics Core Next 1.0.

Tegra X1 is fabricated at 20nm Planar. Which is actually the same as TSMC 16nm, but has Finfet, Volta will be built on 16nm Finfet and double the performance.

However with architectural choices, you can reduce power consumption and increase efficiency. Two chips at the same fabrication level with the same amount of Transistors can perform vastly different and use vastly different amounts of power.

nVidia for instance takes a tiled based approach which has given them an efficiency edge over AMD since Maxwell, Tiled Based Apparoaches tend to be more effective at using minimal resources that are available like bandwidth and caches, so there is less wastage... Combine that with things like Colour Compression and the ability to execute two FP16 operations bundled together as an FP32 op and other architectural nuances and it's easy to see how nVidia manages to get such efficiency even on older fabrication process's.

And that isn't all either. Fabrication is only part of the story. - A chip built on an older and more mature fabrication node can not only be cheaper, but use less power on a newer node.

And even nodes like Global Foundries 14nm Finfet has wildy differing levels of performance/leakage, which greatly influences power consumption and clock rates.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

ironmanDX said:
DonFerrari said:

When PS4/X1 cost 250 versus a 500 PC it is a cheaper alternative. When Switch release for 199+ it won't be a cheaper alternative, not in the same margin.

Sony do have PSVita if you want, and that is still less than 199 and can play PS4 games through stream, and I basically know all the negatives you'll make

 

But you still need a PS4 and a vita... Thus, again... Making Switch the cheaper option. You know the negatives I'm going to make because this discussion is that obvious. It is simply a cheaper alternative. No matter what you say or what other options you try and present. You'll likely miss out on some, (quite a bit, really...) 3rd party software but that doesn't exactly shift the goalpost.

And on Switch you'll still not get the same kind of games (and I could only use PSP that with a cable could be hooked to the TV and use PS3 control), still just being a little cheaper doesn't make it really a cheaper alternative. It isn't like Golf is the cheaper alternative to Ferrari, their purposes are completely different, even GT-R would have a hard time being sold as cheaper alternative even though it gets very close on performance.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Powerful and expensive handheld that can also double as weakish home console? That's PSV2! How could it fail?



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