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Forums - Politics - So, TPP is not going to happen.

 

Is getting rid of the TPP good?

Yes 81 68.07%
 
No 19 15.97%
 
Meh... 3 2.52%
 
Don't know enough to form a concise opinion 16 13.45%
 
Total:119

Anything that allows corporations to sue nations for changing laws is bad. That makes TTP bad, and as a European citizen, I hope TTIP suffers the same fate. I'm all for free trade, but these trade agreements seem to be mostly about other things.



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I hate Trump but he may push towards an end to the idea that ' Globalization is all positive' narrative.



WagnerPaiva said:
palou said:

What's wrong with globalization? And what exactly has George Soros done that makes him bad? (note: I don't actually know much concerning the second question, so I'm genuinely asking for an explication. I'm all for globalization, though, so that's more an invitation for debate.)

Sure, to understand fully how evil and harmful globalization is, I refer you to zygmunt bauman  book Globalization the human consequence, which can be read in samples here:

http://samples.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/9780745674384_sample_412093.pdf

I can also provide you a full pdf and you can fin videos of Bauman himself talking about it.

To understand what it is the globalized world the elite wants, reads THE END OF HISTORY, from Francis Fukuyama.

I will give you the highlights: the ultimate goal is no borders, no sovereignty and an homogenized culture all over the world.

Why is this bad? First, people are different, different foods, habits, creeds, culture, this is a good thing.

Belonging to a place, haveing a language, a nationality, these are all part of what make us human.

The neverending conflicts of Afrika, for example, come from a artificial divide of the continent, destroying the natural cultural tribal borders they had and disrespecting their culture.

What we need is strong nations, with strong sense of culture and understanding that they are not the same as the other nations, but all respecting and living in peace with each other.

A global world aims to a system where a supernational autorithy has power over the nations, and this can easily not have this particular nation best interest in mind.

It is a global empire disguised as a good thing.

George Soros is the main puppeter in this plan, he uses rise and fall of nations to get richer and often manufacter such rises and falls. He finance racial wars (Black Live Matters), gender wars and all the manifestations of the Left all around the world. He also lobbies for the end of all religions and finance groups that work in this objective.

-There are far more financial experts in support of free trade than against. This is because:

-One of the most trivial conclusions of the Keynesian Theory (the basis for modern capitalism; offer and demand, productivity, etc...) is that the productivity of any single combined economic system C including A and B is higher than the sum of its parts; in other words, unifying two economies increases their total production of goods (thus, also how much people have), a direct consequence of market optimization and diversity.

 

The whole «the elites want it» thing sounds to me like a poorly justified conspiration theory (don't take it personnaly; I can be wrong, just my impression.)

What concerns cultural propagation:

That's not a consequence of a free trade agreement. Nonetheless, I personnaly believe that the spread and travel of culture strengthens it. Example: I'm a big fan of classical music (in case your tag means anything, at least that much in common :) I also like to play in my free time, did competitions and everything). Nowadays, the biggest market for classical music, and also a big pool of its talent, (Mitzuko Uchida, Yo-Yo Ma, Zubin Mehta, etc...) is in Asia, while the sector has been struggling for decades in the West. I'm grateful that these artists continue to add upon what our ancestors have produced. 

 

Some aspects, domains, have already been globalized. Science, for example. My father is a Mathematician, and German. He works in a University in Canada. His closer colleagues (in research distance) are a russian, an egyptian and a chinese. He is currently collaborating with a Japanese and a Serb working at an american university, a project that they started at a conference in China. 

 

And Mathematics are better for it; the people that work on specific questions are few and spread out arounf the globe, and it just makes sense for them to work together to get results. This is the same for most scientific domains. This has been in application for quite some time now, mostly because a PHD in Science or related domains is pretty much an international passport.

 

That's my point of view, anyway. It's probably fairly restrained, as I grew up in a very academicly centered environnement (thus getting the previously mentionned impression), without much difficulty in life (till now, anyways...). It could fully well be that things look very diffirent elsewhere; but from what I can see, opening borders is a good thing



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

Zkuq said:
Anything that allows corporations to sue nations for changing laws is bad. That makes TTP bad, and as a European citizen, I hope TTIP suffers the same fate. I'm all for free trade, but these trade agreements seem to be mostly about other things.

Again, as I mentionned, corporations can only sue governments for being impartial, discriminatory depending on country of origin. You can ban smoking; you can't ban all European cigarette brands from competing, while allowing your own cigarette companies to prosper. You can put a carbon tax; you can't put a carbon tax on all foreign corporations, while imposing none on your own buisnesses. It's just a way to assure that trade truly stays free.

I'm pretty sure TTIP is going that way, if that makes you happy.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

As an Australian losing the TPP, this will be a disaster for us

Australia already has a very open economy, virtually no tariffs, and many free trade agreements with other countries, this has allowed Australia to prosper even during the financial crisis of 2008

The US has had tariffs up against Australia's agricultural goods forever, the US currently subsidises its agriculture unlike Australia, Australian agriculture is sustainable and efficient, unlike the US system, without the TPP the US will only get worse in this regard, and even Australia will suffer due to the uneven playing field

The US is Australia's second largest economic partner behind China, the scraping of free trade (TPP) by the US will hurt us a lot, our ties with China will have to get stronger to compensate



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palou said:
WagnerPaiva said:

Sure, to understand fully how evil and harmful globalization is, I refer you to zygmunt bauman  book Globalization the human consequence, which can be read in samples here:

http://samples.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/9780745674384_sample_412093.pdf

I can also provide you a full pdf and you can fin videos of Bauman himself talking about it.

To understand what it is the globalized world the elite wants, reads THE END OF HISTORY, from Francis Fukuyama.

I will give you the highlights: the ultimate goal is no borders, no sovereignty and an homogenized culture all over the world.

Why is this bad? First, people are different, different foods, habits, creeds, culture, this is a good thing.

Belonging to a place, haveing a language, a nationality, these are all part of what make us human.

The neverending conflicts of Afrika, for example, come from a artificial divide of the continent, destroying the natural cultural tribal borders they had and disrespecting their culture.

What we need is strong nations, with strong sense of culture and understanding that they are not the same as the other nations, but all respecting and living in peace with each other.

A global world aims to a system where a supernational autorithy has power over the nations, and this can easily not have this particular nation best interest in mind.

It is a global empire disguised as a good thing.

George Soros is the main puppeter in this plan, he uses rise and fall of nations to get richer and often manufacter such rises and falls. He finance racial wars (Black Live Matters), gender wars and all the manifestations of the Left all around the world. He also lobbies for the end of all religions and finance groups that work in this objective.

-There are far more financial experts in support of free trade than against. This is because:

-One of the most trivial conclusions of the Keynesian Theory (the basis for modern capitalism; offer and demand, productivity, etc...) is that the productivity of any single combined economic system C including A and B is higher than the sum of its parts; in other words, unifying two economies increases their total production of goods (thus, also how much people have), a direct consequence of market optimization and diversity.

 

The whole «the elites want it» thing sounds to me like a poorly justified conspiration theory (don't take it personnaly; I can be wrong, just my impression.)

What concerns cultural propagation:

That's not a consequence of a free trade agreement. Nonetheless, I personnaly believe that the spread and travel of culture strengthens it. Example: I'm a big fan of classical music (in case your tag means anything, at least that much in common :) I also like to play in my free time, did competitions and everything). Nowadays, the biggest market for classical music, and also a big pool of its talent, (Mitzuko Uchida, Yo-Yo Ma, Zubin Mehta, etc...) is in Asia, while the sector has been struggling for decades in the West. I'm grateful that these artists continue to add upon what our ancestors have produced. 

 

Some aspects, domains, have already been globalized. Science, for example. My father is a Mathematician, and German. He works in a University in Canada. His closer colleagues (in research distance) are a russian, an egyptian and a chinese. He is currently collaborating with a Japanese and a Serb working at an american university, a project that they started at a conference in China. 

 

And Mathematics are better for it; the people that work on specific questions are few and spread out arounf the globe, and it just makes sense for them to work together to get results. This is the same for most scientific domains. This has been in application for quite some time now, mostly because a PHD in Science or related domains is pretty much an international passport.

 

That's my point of view, anyway. It's probably fairly restrained, as I grew up in a very academicly centered environnement (thus getting the previously mentionned impression), without much difficulty in life (till now, anyways...). It could fully well be that things look very diffirent elsewhere; but from what I can see, opening borders is a good thing

There has being a endocrination on pushing globalization as a great idea in the last 20 years, your opinion does not surprise me. If you like see the other side of the argument, I encourage you to watch Bauman interviews.



My grammar errors are justified by the fact that I am a brazilian living in Brazil. I am also very stupid.

Globalism is inevitable because of technology and capitalism. One global market means business operates on a global level, even Trump can talk all he wants about anti-globalism, but it's a sham, he himself has thousands of business ties everywhere across the globe.

Globalism isn't a "last 20 years" thing either, lol, read a bloody history book, this is what the Cold War was about, capitalism/free market-ism won, this is the world its created (some parts good, some parts not so good). 

Anyways to be honest I couldn't really give a shit about the TPP or any of this stuff, but from what I understand if TPP falls through it means China benefits big time and will be able to control more of economy in the Pacific, all those countries are going to look more towards China.

Business is not going to just say "OK, no TPP so we're not doing business here", it just means that China will gladly take their business and I'm sure they're quite happy to see the US potentially out.  

In reality Trump's advisers will probably sit him down and tell him this and he will probably just pass something similar to the TPP by tweaking a few things, rebranding it, and taking credit for it being the "best deal ever" in his usual sales-pitch style.



palou said:
Zkuq said:
Anything that allows corporations to sue nations for changing laws is bad. That makes TTP bad, and as a European citizen, I hope TTIP suffers the same fate. I'm all for free trade, but these trade agreements seem to be mostly about other things.

Again, as I mentionned, corporations can only sue governments for being impartial, discriminatory depending on country of origin. You can ban smoking; you can't ban all European cigarette brands from competing, while allowing your own cigarette companies to prosper. You can put a carbon tax; you can't put a carbon tax on all foreign corporations, while imposing none on your own buisnesses. It's just a way to assure that trade truly stays free.

I'm pretty sure TTIP is going that way, if that makes you happy.

If that's the case, I'm OK with it. That's not what I've been hearing about TTIP so far though, but if it ends up that way, I'm fine with it. That said, rules often get interpreted pretty broadly, so even that's not entirely without problems. Actually screw that, I'm not OK with it. Protectionist laws should be handled as trade agreement violations instead of suing because of them. Private entities should not have any direct word in matters like this.



palou said:
Zkuq said:
Anything that allows corporations to sue nations for changing laws is bad. That makes TTP bad, and as a European citizen, I hope TTIP suffers the same fate. I'm all for free trade, but these trade agreements seem to be mostly about other things.

Again, as I mentionned, corporations can only sue governments for being impartial, discriminatory depending on country of origin. You can ban smoking; you can't ban all European cigarette brands from competing, while allowing your own cigarette companies to prosper. You can put a carbon tax; you can't put a carbon tax on all foreign corporations, while imposing none on your own buisnesses. It's just a way to assure that trade truly stays free.

I'm pretty sure TTIP is going that way, if that makes you happy.

That's not true. Corporations can sue for pretty much anything that they deem would affect their bottom line. A good example of what would have happened is how tobacco companies are suing Australia for the plain packaging act. How is that discriminatory? It's not and yet they're still suing Australia. This is underr another trade treaty (AU and HK) but it would be similar.



Rab said:

As an Australian losing the TPP, this will be a disaster for us

Australia already has a very open economy, virtually no tariffs, and many free trade agreements with other countries, this has allowed Australia to prosper even during the financial crisis of 2008

The US has had tariffs up against Australia's agricultural goods forever, the US currently subsidises its agriculture unlike Australia, Australian agriculture is sustainable and efficient, unlike the US system, without the TPP the US will only get worse in this regard, and even Australia will suffer due to the uneven playing field

The US is Australia's second largest economic partner behind China, the scraping of free trade (TPP) by the US will hurt us a lot, our ties with China will have to get stronger to compensate

You are USA 26th highest trading partner.  I believe you probably rely on China a lot more than United States.  According to this site 99% of exports of consumer and industrial goods are duty free.  I see no problem with our trade relations with Australia even with TPP falling through.

"Australia is currently our 26th largest goods trading partner with $35.3 billion in total (two ways) goods trade during 2013. Goods exports totaled $26.0 billion; Goods imports totaled $9.3 billion. The U.S. goods trade surplus with Australia was $16.8 billion in 2013."

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/southeast-asia-pacific/australia#