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Forums - Politics - I would still vote Democrat even if Hillary was the worst human being on earth...

TheLastStarFighter said:
sethnintendo said:

I get where you are coming from.  I just hate how our system is set up where the losers are pretty much told to pack up and try again next election cycle.  I think giving a proportion (most proportional are not true proportional) is more fair than nothing at all.  It just kind of sucks being in a state that votes for a party that you don't like.  The electoral college basically writes off most states are either red or blue and just focuses on a few states like Ohio or Florida.  I am surprised that Texas is now supposedly a tight race but that could be because of the two most disliked candidates in history being the representatives of their parties. Oh and I also don't approve the process of gerrymandering.

That being said isn't the United States a Republic?  Technically USA is a Republic first and foremost that democratically elects their representatives.  I believe in order to be a democracry the citizens vote directly on laws (which happens for bond issues /state and local issues I suppose).

As a Canadian, I actually really like many aspects of the American system.  Elected judges, seperate election of the president from Congress, elected senate, staggered election cycles and so forth.  So many great checks and balances.

You want to talk about "pack it up and wait for the next election?"  In Canada Justin Trudeau was just elected with 38% of the vote but now essentially has supreme power as majority leader of the parliament.  He's thowing away all pretence of democracy, but takes great selfies so no one cares.

The biggest flaw in US goverment, to my eyes, is the two-party system, both of which have been "bought off" by large loby groups.  Obama blocks pipe lines to because Buffett owns trains.  Bush invades Iraq because Haliburton makes bombs.  Both parties impose sactions agains Iran but ignore Saudi Arabia because the Saudis fund them.  The lack of viable third or fourth alternative parties to disrupt the settled establishment has made the US government largely innefective.  One of the biggest "pros" for me in favor of Trump is that at least he was fairly elected.  The preferred Democrat candidate was likely vitoed by the party heiracrchy. 

Canada is an example of a three-party system ain't so great.

The conservatives in Canada would likely never win, they only win because the NDP and the Liberals sometimes split the vote on the left. 

Clinton was fairly elected, she had several million more votes than Sanders. People need to understand, Bernie Sanders is pretty fucking radical even for a lot of Democrats, not every Democrat wants huge tax increases, Clinton is a known commodity and very lost to Obama in 2008 only by a hair. The narrative that she has no support is simply false, a lot of the Democratic base is behind Clinton, she came closer to beating Obama than either McCain or Romney did, and Obama is arguably a "generational" politican in terms of his charisma/wide appeal (if he were able to run again this election he would trounce Trump). 

Money in politics is a problem, but here's another problem. People are fucking lazy. They think casting one vote every 4 years is good enough. No. You need to organize and actively protest against things like big money lobbying. 

Politicians, even on the left, did not back gay marriage or marijuana legalization until a majority in the country supported those initiatives. Politicans turns which ever way public opinion is going like 99% of the time. People are lazy, and corporations exploit that laziness by getting legislation passed while people are sleeping on things (for example the idea of a corporation having the same rights as an individual ... there should have been massive blow back to that). 

Organize and protest these things. Electing a president is only 20% of the equation. You also need to elect the proper state senators and congressmen/women. When you see corruption/lobbying you need to make sure you give your elected officials a piece of your mind. Sadly, most people would rather watch "America's Got Talent" or a football game. 



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that's all right, even when hillary is tring to help the children while trump is dissing on the children the teenagers defentaly if there girls so i dont think it should matter what type you are i think you should go for who is helping the children. and then whos hellping the rest.



TheLastStarFighter said:
KungKras said:

The US is one of the least democratic democracies in the world.

No, the US system is exceptionally "democratic" compared to most systems.  Voters vote for congress, senate president, judges and so fourth individually.  That's not to say the system doesn't have significant flaws, but it is very democratic.  As a Canadian, I vote only for my local member of parliament, who then has to vote essentially what his party leader says, or he'll be kicked out of the party.  That's exceptinally un-democratic.

The flaws are game-breaking for democracy. They're bigger than you think.

Popular opinion doesn't matter because money from political donors decide the selection of candidates beforehand. The system is set up so that only two major parties are relevant in the general election. Wich exacerbates the problem of moneyed interests having the final say in everything.

You have no political spectrum to speak. Studies show that public opinion has almost no effect on plocy while donor opinion has a 99% prediction rate over what the policy will be. It's a plutocracy more than a democracy. It's fundamentally broken.



I LOVE ICELAND!

Not only is Trump a better person than Hillary, he also got better policies. As someone who was born and raised Democrat I think, I feel like I have been straight up brainwashed after backing up for a second and viewing the faults and problems with both parties this last month. A lot of this revelation comes from viewing the Wikileaks on Hillary and the DNC as well as other evidence of democratic corruption. but I wont talk about only corruption but rather why I felt an overwhelming sense of foolishness for supporting Democrats for so long

1. I believed Republican appealed to racist people in America - not hard to think when you see video after video of racist people at Trump rally and think there might be something to this claim. Nope, Hillary and the DNC straight up pay people to go to Trump rallies and do this shit and cause violence. The use of violence to push a political agenda is terrorism, is it not? The mainstream media has also been PROVEN to be working with the DNC (through wikileaks) so this toxic narrative of  claiming every non-democrat is racist is pure propaganda to the fullest. (source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY)

2. I believed Obama was a decent President -  the mainstream media telling us how great Obama was and his only problem was not being able to get anything done because "Racist Republican congress stand in his way". Not true, he is is just as bad a President as George W Bush in just about every way. Double the National Debt? Bush and Obama both did that (meaning Obama added 2x as much as Bush did so Bush's tax plan wasn't the main culprit). Got us involved in new conflicts in the middle east? both did that. Approved a healthcare plan that we simply can't afford? check for both. Obama is credited with lowering the unemployment rate after the recession but what people don't tell you is that it was by creating very low paying LOWERCLASS jobs thus leading to a growing lower and upper class which is not ideal (large middle class is ideal). FDR brought us out of the great recession and was President during WW2 and added 1/3 the amount of debt per year (adjusting for inflation) as Obama.

3. Republican are racist for suggesting Obama wasn't born in US - this one still blows my mind. they aren't racist, Obama literally claimed to be born in Kenya in his Biology (he told a literary agent making his biology so it could understandably be a mistake). This claim was left in him biology until shortly before he ran for President (which you can't do as an immigrant). So a completely legitimate assumption for Republicans to make yet the MSM never acknowledged that Obama was the first to claim he wasn't born in U.S. I don't think he was born outside the US and faked a birth certificate, but he gave people a good reason to suspect that and it had nothing to do with race.

4. Democrats commit mass voter fraud on a much bigger scale than Republicans: (source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDc8PVCvfKs)

5. THE EXTREME Hillary Clinton/democrat bias in the major news outlets: it is absolutely disgusting to watch them cover the Hillary Clinton Deleted email, wikileaks and charitable foundation scandals when you actually know the facts relating to these scandals. It really was mind blowing watching CNN try so desperately to PROTECT Clinton when there are so much evidence agaist her. If you were to ask me one month ago which were the most and least impartial news medias, I would have said CNN and Fox respectively. Now I believe the complete opposite.

 

I could list how a Hillary Clinton presidency WILL NOT help most of the people voting for her but this post is already to long.



What is so difficult about voting in the U.S.? I voted today. You walk in, give your name and vote. It took me about 5 minutes start to finish. Even when I vote on election day, its usually on a few minutes in line.



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OP, you say you care about "gay rights" and you are voting for Hillary Clinton. Here is a link to the Clinton foundation donations page for donors between 10-25 million (https://www.clintonfoundation.org/contributors?category=%2410%2C000%2C001+to+%2425%2C000%2C000). Did you notice a really odd donor? well it is Saudi Arabia..... A country that has the death penalty for being gay. Seems pretty odd for Saudi Arabia to care so much about a US charitable foundation that focuses on female empowerment. Well with the reports that the Clinton foundation is being used as a money laundering scheme to funnel foreign donations into the campaign as well as to buy favors, this very strange donation now makes sense. Also Qatar (just as bad as Saudi Arabia) gave Bill Clinton a 1 million dollar check as a "birthday present". Even if you don't believe there is ANY wrong doing occurring in the Clinton foundation (please research it yourself), it isn't right to be taking so much money from government that commit massive human rights violations.


Also Hillary Clinton PUBLICLY opposed gay marriage up until 2013. It is not like she had some realization at the young age of 66 that her entire life's stance on gay rights was wrong. No she realized where the votes are, literally every single one of her public stances reflect what would garner the most voters but many time she has voted for the exact opposite as well as tell her backers that she acknowledges she has a "private and public position". You say you don't care about how bad these candidates personalities are because you care about the policies, well if you have such a massive liar like Clinton how can you even know what policies she will enact? Her simply being a Democrat doesn't determine that she will fight for gay rights, as I mentioned she voted against gay marriage as a democrat before. Party allegiance doesn't determine everything.


Welfare? Increased welfare and food stamp reliance only hurts black neighborhoods (I was born in one). There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the best way to help ALL poor neighborhood is to invest much more in k-12 education. Democrats has made education worse all the while greatly increasing the reliance on social programs like food stamps. This is a devastating road to travel down and is a reason I will no longer vote Democrat.



I also changed my party affiliation a couple of months ago. It took 5 minutes or less on the computer from my home. Easy.



SanAndreasX said:
vivster said:

Too bad in the US that would be the exact same as not voting at all. The two party system there is stupid. Here in Germany no party is safe from elimination. You simply cannot rule the country if you do not have at least 50+% of the votes. And since nowadays even the biggest parties struggle to reach even 30% of the votes a single vote has a lot more power because even if there is one strongest party it cannot rule without building a succesful coalition.

Try to envision the same system for the US. Since people vote for 3rd parties and usually the winning party does not get 50% of the votes it would have to work together with one of the smaller parties. That would give people the power to make a difference by voting a 3rd party who now also has the chance to take part in the government.

The problem with the US system isn't that it's a "two party" system, it's the fact that the winner takes all. People vote in gerrymandered blocs called "districts" here, which are drawn up by the majority party in the legislature in most states, blatantly to advantage their side and deny all representation to the opposing party, after the census is counted and Congressional votes redistributed. Arizona has thankfully begun the process of reforming districting to eliminate gerrymandering and hopefully more states will follow suit.

When someone gets past the posts first, all other votes are simply thrown away. Oklahoma is one of the most Republican states in the US, but still has a Democratic population of 40%. Yet, it has 100% Republican representation in Congress and its 7 electoral votes have a 100% chance of going to Donald Trump. 40% of Oklahoma voters are effectively disenfranchised. The same situation exists in Oklahoma's Democratic counterpart, Massachusetts, with regards to Republicans living there.

That said, there is one advantage to the US system: it keeps fringe parties like the Communists and the American Nazi Party out of the government.  They can try infiltrating the Democrats and the Republicans, but that's also extremely difficult.

Yeah I wanted to use that as a point to show USA democracy is kind of fucked up.  i understand that in the old days every state was bascially a country but we are now 2016, I think most people now associate USA as one country so why does something like the electoral college still exist especially for something important as a president...

Because really if you would win in all the small(er) states that are a total of 20-28% of the total popultion you will become president thanks to the electoral college that gaves you more than 50% for those states.

Imagine if tomorow USA and Canada play a Ice hockey/football game and USA has 20 points and Canada 18....Then the referee says each point for Canada is more important because it is smaller in population....   People would riot and be pissed of even the Canadians would even feel sorry but people accept it when choosing a new president...and three times in USA history it has happened that a president won only thanks to the electoral college, it is not that rare..






vivster said:

... and Trump the most upstanding citizen.

Simply because it's all about policy. I like the left wing policies a lot more than the right wing ones and I would gain nothing by voting republican.

 

Of course this is hypothetical since I live in a real democracy where we vote for parties and their policies first and then faces.

Sadly, American left resembles Euro right... Clinton's another Rajoy, Trump another Putin... 



vivster said:

... and Trump the most upstanding citizen.

Simply because it's all about policy. I like the left wing policies a lot more than the right wing ones and I would gain nothing by voting republican.

 

Of course this is hypothetical since I live in a real democracy where we vote for parties and their policies first and then faces.

If you're into left-wing politics, you might as well support the Green Party. Democrats haven't been left-wing for about 30 years. In fact, these days, Democrats and Republicans agree on more issues than they disagree on.



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