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Forums - Sony Discussion - CNET: How the PS4 Pro made me a believer

Lawlight said:
greenmedic88 said:

It will be sharper. Not night and day difference, but noticeably sharper when looking at an actual 4K display with video actively rendering. At that point, it's going to depend upon how close the viewer is to the screen and the size of the screen.

But at normal living room viewing distances, it won't make a difference. Those who play with 4k displays at a desk and play seated at the desk will probably be able to tell, as will the odd duck console player who stands within arm's reach of their display when they play. 

It feels like this discussion has been covered ad nauseum already when 1080p displays and the 7th gen were new. 

The article says the difference won't be noticeable but you're saying noticeably sharper?

The article is subjective opinion given by a random journalist. If one hears this from an SCE rep or developer, their PR face may tell you there is no difference, or if being frank, they will tell you it's barely noticeable. Note the difference. 

There is a difference, and AV philes and industry professionals will be able to pick out the difference in a side to side comparison. 

Incidentally, a screen shot or even a video capture is of very limited usefulness for any realistic discussion. 

The checkerboarding rendering technique is not something entirely new. Developers have used similar techniques with the PS3. Wipeout used a dynamic resolution that dynamically altered the horizontal resolution to keep frame rates stable. MGS4 did some horizontal resolution manipulation that was more in line with interpolation, but the actual native res was closer to 1:1 than 16:9 aspect ratio. 

3D games typically divide the horizontal resolultion by half: each eye gets 960x1080. Different application, but again, it's the horizontal resolution that's being reduced, reducing the aliasing as well as blurring effect. 

Don't miscontrue this argument as a dismissal of the technique; my guess is that it will likely look better than any existing resolution manipulation in making a non native render image look closer to a native render image because it was specifically tailored to the constraints of the specific PS4P hardware. 

And I say guess, because I'm simply basing this off of available data, not pre-determined fan based opinions, hype or actual hands on tests of which I have none.



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greenmedic88 said:
Lawlight said:

The article says the difference won't be noticeable but you're saying noticeably sharper?

The article is subjective opinion given by a random journalist. If one hears this from an SCE rep or developer, their PR face may tell you there is no difference, or if being frank, they will tell you it's barely noticeable. Note the difference. 

There is a difference, and AV philes and industry professionals will be able to pick out the difference in a side to side comparison. 

Incidentally, a screen shot or even a video capture is of very limited usefulness for any realistic discussion. 

The checkerboarding rendering technique is not something entirely new. Developers have used similar techniques with the PS3. Wipeout used a dynamic resolution that dynamically altered the horizontal resolution to keep frame rates stable. MGS4 did some horizontal resolution manipulation that was more in line with interpolation, but the actual native res was closer to 1:1 than 16:9 aspect ratio. 

3D games typically divide the horizontal resolultion by half: each eye gets 960x1080. Different application, but again, it's the horizontal resolution that's being reduced, reducing the aliasing as well as blurring effect. 

Don't miscontrue this argument as a dismissal of the technique; my guess is that it will likely look better than any existing resolution manipulation in making a non native render image look closer to a native render image because it was specifically tailored to the constraints of the specific PS4P hardware. 

And I say guess, because I'm simply basing this off of available data, not pre-determined fan based opinions, hype or actual hands on tests of which I have none.

He's someone who reviews hardware for a living, not some random journalist. You don't have to believe him but would you believe Digital Foundry who were sceptics ( their own words) but were thoroughly impressed with the checkerboard technique. Even up close the difference was only "slight" - their words.

Also, this checkerboard technique is new and innovative - read Svenno's post. You're confusing it with interpolation.

So, available data and expert opinions show that the difference virtually non-existent.



All i want to know is what will it do for my PSVR? I'll pay for it the second I get official confirmation that my games will look sharper.



greenmedic88 said:

The article is subjective opinion given by a random journalist. If one hears this from an SCE rep or developer, their PR face may tell you there is no difference, or if being frank, they will tell you it's barely noticeable. Note the difference. 

There is a difference, and AV philes and industry professionals will be able to pick out the difference in a side to side comparison. 

Incidentally, a screen shot or even a video capture is of very limited usefulness for any realistic discussion. 

The checkerboarding rendering technique is not something entirely new. Developers have used similar techniques with the PS3. Wipeout used a dynamic resolution that dynamically altered the horizontal resolution to keep frame rates stable. MGS4 did some horizontal resolution manipulation that was more in line with interpolation, but the actual native res was closer to 1:1 than 16:9 aspect ratio. 

3D games typically divide the horizontal resolultion by half: each eye gets 960x1080. Different application, but again, it's the horizontal resolution that's being reduced, reducing the aliasing as well as blurring effect. 

Don't miscontrue this argument as a dismissal of the technique; my guess is that it will likely look better than any existing resolution manipulation in making a non native render image look closer to a native render image because it was specifically tailored to the constraints of the specific PS4P hardware. 

And I say guess, because I'm simply basing this off of available data, not pre-determined fan based opinions, hype or actual hands on tests of which I have none.

I dont know, but isnt the impression of random journalists exactly what we need for this? I mean i would take their word over anything sony devs say anyday anytime. Besides, there are a great number of journos that have talked about it and said they cant see a difference except under specific conditions. Like being under 3ft from a 55"+ Tv; and i would really like to know who games under those conditions. 

And now about their technicque, yes checkerboarding isnt new, bit this is the first time that custom hardware has been baked into a GPU to do something that specifically improves the accuracy of the upscale and reduce the performance hit it would have other wise had. And this isn't just upscaling a 1080p image (which in itself is alresdy decently sharp) it's a technique applied to a significantly higher base resolution than 1080p.

Custom hardware and a higher base rez would as you say result in an upscale tech that's better than any upscale solution already out there now and it's real world results are still left to be seen in detail. 

If anything, I feel the only issue here is that not everyone would use the checkerboard technique as there are easier ways to upscale with varying results and Sony doesn't make which method devs use mandatory. What this means is that we would no doubt have games that don't look anywhere near as good as others when upscaled to 4k and unfortunately, those would be the only games that most would reference when trying to point out the PS4pro's shortcomings as a 4k console. 



d21lewis said:
All i want to know is what will it do for my PSVR? I'll pay for it the second I get official confirmation that my games will like shaper.

So far there's very little info on psvr upgrades, but there is this

And there will be boosts for VR games too, with hardware multi-res support that should improve performance on second-gen PSVR titles. Second-gen PSVR titles will be able to leverage bespoke multi-resolution technology that allows the 'edges' of the view here to be rendered at a lower resolution. There'll be a big boost to performance with no noticeable impact to image quality in the HMD.

Since the image in the headset is warped due to how the lenses work, a lot of the pixels rendered near the borders will never be visible in the final image.

PS4 pro gets hardware support to save rendering the wasted space, which means it can already increase the overall perceived resolution by bumping it up in the center for the same cost. And then you still get the 1.3x CPU increase and 2.3x GPU. Supersampling will help out psvr a lot too.



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SvennoJ said:
d21lewis said:
All i want to know is what will it do for my PSVR? I'll pay for it the second I get official confirmation that my games will like shaper.

So far there's very little info on psvr upgrades, but there is this

And there will be boosts for VR games too, with hardware multi-res support that should improve performance on second-gen PSVR titles. Second-gen PSVR titles will be able to leverage bespoke multi-resolution technology that allows the 'edges' of the view here to be rendered at a lower resolution. There'll be a big boost to performance with no noticeable impact to image quality in the HMD.

Since the image in the headset is warped due to how the lenses work, a lot of the pixels rendered near the borders will never be visible in the final image.

PS4 pro gets hardware support to save rendering the wasted space, which means it can already increase the overall perceived resolution by bumping it up in the center for the same cost. And then you still get the 1.3x CPU increase and 2.3x GPU. Supersampling will help out psvr a lot too.

I'm optimistic but torn. I don't want to preorder and spend $400 for benefits I don't really care about (TV resolution.) but I also don't want to miss out on launch day and be unable to find a console if it does boost performance--or even does away with some of those PSVR connection cables!

 

I think I'm going to go ahead and bite the bullet, though. I've already cleared a spot in my living room for my older PS4 so I can put the Pro in my game room. I'm just lying to myself when I say I won't buy one. I know me too well!



Lawlight said:
greenmedic88 said:

The article is subjective opinion given by a random journalist. If one hears this from an SCE rep or developer, their PR face may tell you there is no difference, or if being frank, they will tell you it's barely noticeable. Note the difference. 

There is a difference, and AV philes and industry professionals will be able to pick out the difference in a side to side comparison. 

Incidentally, a screen shot or even a video capture is of very limited usefulness for any realistic discussion. 

The checkerboarding rendering technique is not something entirely new. Developers have used similar techniques with the PS3. Wipeout used a dynamic resolution that dynamically altered the horizontal resolution to keep frame rates stable. MGS4 did some horizontal resolution manipulation that was more in line with interpolation, but the actual native res was closer to 1:1 than 16:9 aspect ratio. 

3D games typically divide the horizontal resolultion by half: each eye gets 960x1080. Different application, but again, it's the horizontal resolution that's being reduced, reducing the aliasing as well as blurring effect. 

Don't miscontrue this argument as a dismissal of the technique; my guess is that it will likely look better than any existing resolution manipulation in making a non native render image look closer to a native render image because it was specifically tailored to the constraints of the specific PS4P hardware. 

And I say guess, because I'm simply basing this off of available data, not pre-determined fan based opinions, hype or actual hands on tests of which I have none.

He's someone who reviews hardware for a living, not some random journalist. You don't have to believe him but would you believe Digital Foundry who were sceptics ( their own words) but were thoroughly impressed with the checkerboard technique. Even up close the difference was only "slight" - their words.

Also, this checkerboard technique is new and innovative - read Svenno's post. You're confusing it with interpolation.

So, available data and expert opinions show that the difference virtually non-existent.

Here's Digital Foundry's PS4P in-depth analysis. It coincides with what I've been saying. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGBlwdkHWFs



It's the 4k capable gaming PC vs. PS4P in 4k display mode that closed the argument for me.

If you can't tell the difference, you're either deceiving yourself, or chasing a fool's argument.



d21lewis said:

I'm optimistic but torn. I don't want to preorder and spend $400 for benefits I don't really care about (TV resolution.) but I also don't want to miss out on launch day and be unable to find a console if it does boost performance--or even does away with some of those PSVR connection cables!

 

I think I'm going to go ahead and bite the bullet, though. I've already cleared a spot in my living room for my older PS4 so I can put the Pro in my game room. I'm just lying to myself when I say I won't buy one. I know me too well!

I don't think you can go wrong with it. OR recommends a GTX 970, which the ps4 pro outperforms. That card (4GB) is CAD 500 here, the same price as the p4 pro! And due to the slightly lower res and only needing 60fps (reprojected to 120) instead of full on 90fps, the psvr only needs 53% of the pixel fillrate of OR. Add hardware multi-res support and psvr games should get a very noticeable boost on ps4 pro.

The pro has a rear USB port, no more ugly usb cable looping to the back for the breakout box. The box and other cables won't go away though :/ I hoped they would have a dedicated VR port in the pro, but 499 price point is nice too. It should be 532 here with exchange rate, even better deal.

I know myself too, plus it will be nice to have room on the hdd again. Pro purchase is pretty much guaranteed.

I got my first VR plat for Rez Infinite and just finished the DC VR tour as well, too much fun, even in crappy low res.



greenmedic88 said:
It's the 4k capable gaming PC vs. PS4P in 4k display mode that closed the argument for me.

If you can't tell the difference, you're either deceiving yourself, or chasing a fool's argument.

Digital Foundry about Days Gone:

I observed the pixel structure on a 65-inch Sony 4K display from just two feet away, and then I moved closer. It looked good, seriously good. There is a slight softness compared to the pin-sharp precision of a native 4K presentation, but even close-up, the effect works well - in a living room environment, it should work just fine.

If you think you can discern pixels better than DF, then there's nothing else to add. Other than maybe this from the video you linked:

"Even if it is no native 4K, it does not need to be to show a big increase in picture quality over 1080p". So, my guess is that if someone says they can spot the difference in a living then they'd be deceiving themselves.