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Forums - Sports Discussion - The Pro Wrasslin' Thread (WWE, WWF, WCW, TNA, ROH, NWA, NJPW, etc)

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What match are you excited for at WWE Payback 2017?

Neville vs. Austin Aries ... 1 5.88%
 
Randy Orton vs. Bray Wyat... 3 17.65%
 
The Hardy Boyz vs. Cesaro... 3 17.65%
 
Kevin Owens vs. Chris Jer... 4 23.53%
 
Bayley vs. Alexa Bliss (Raw Women's Title) 3 17.65%
 
Seth Rollins vs. Samoa Joe 1 5.88%
 
Roman Reigns vs. Braun Strowman 2 11.76%
 
Total:17

Been a bit busy and not following wrestling as much, but Backlash was a very nice little surprise. I had low expectations that were blown away.

Rollins vs Rhodes was great. Old schoolish match with a story as Rollins was now prepared for everything Cody was doing and he had to adapt. But also had some great spots. Surprised they went with a rollup finish as I don't see where this feud goes unless they want to beat Rollins thrice. But great match.

Lashley vs Omos surprised. Omos is getting much better with his movement. He's not gonna be the next Big Show, but also probably not the next Khali. Having a guy that size who can make Lashley look like David instead of Goliath is an asset. Good Raw match quality, nothing more.

Rousey vs Flair was surprisingly good. Rousey does some things well, but transitions between spots isn't quite there yet. So, whoever said "ok make it I Quit so the ref can check on her between spots" deserves a raise. This also had the benefit of being the one true grudge match with weapons and all over brawling, which helped it stand off. Surprisingly exceeded Rollins and Rhodes for me.

Moss vs Corbin was, whatever. I sort of like the characters cause I love puns, but I'm not all that interested in seeing them fight. It was fine.

Edge vs AJ Styles was... ok. It's not that it wasn't really good, it's just that the chemistry between them just isn't what you'd expect it to be. Considering how good each person is, you'd expect it to be an all time classic, and it was good, just not that good.

The main event on the other hand was really good. All the people involved come off like stars. Because they scrapped the unification stip, it lacked stakes which made it hard to get into, but once they got rolling, it was just six really fucking good wrestlers doing what they do. Mcyntyre and Reigns is obviously the build for Summerslam and they teased it just enough here to start building to that. This was a 6 man spotfest kind of match but everything was executed so well, and again, it benefitted from being the only type of that match on the card.

Maybe just my low expectations, but I thought this was great. My one complaint is that there was only one women's match. I'm not saying there has to necessarily be a quota, but it's hard to justify Omos, Corbin, and Moss having a spot on the card when Bianca Belair doesn't. In general, there is a problem with how many talented people are in the company and the amount of PPV time. I sort of liked it better when they had separate PPVs for Raw and Smackdown so you could cycle through people a little more. It's a catch 22, because I get why you want your biggest stars on every show, but then you don't get as much opportunity to build other people. You want to use your veterans but this show didn't exactly feature a lot of spring chickens.



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JWeinCom said:

Been a bit busy and not following wrestling as much, but Backlash was a very nice little surprise. I had low expectations that were blown away.

Rollins vs Rhodes was great. Old schoolish match with a story as Rollins was now prepared for everything Cody was doing and he had to adapt. But also had some great spots. Surprised they went with a rollup finish as I don't see where this feud goes unless they want to beat Rollins thrice. But great match.

Lashley vs Omos surprised. Omos is getting much better with his movement. He's not gonna be the next Big Show, but also probably not the next Khali. Having a guy that size who can make Lashley look like David instead of Goliath is an asset. Good Raw match quality, nothing more.

Rousey vs Flair was surprisingly good. Rousey does some things well, but transitions between spots isn't quite there yet. So, whoever said "ok make it I Quit so the ref can check on her between spots" deserves a raise. This also had the benefit of being the one true grudge match with weapons and all over brawling, which helped it stand off. Surprisingly exceeded Rollins and Rhodes for me.

Moss vs Corbin was, whatever. I sort of like the characters cause I love puns, but I'm not all that interested in seeing them fight. It was fine.

Edge vs AJ Styles was... ok. It's not that it wasn't really good, it's just that the chemistry between them just isn't what you'd expect it to be. Considering how good each person is, you'd expect it to be an all time classic, and it was good, just not that good.

The main event on the other hand was really good. All the people involved come off like stars. Because they scrapped the unification stip, it lacked stakes which made it hard to get into, but once they got rolling, it was just six really fucking good wrestlers doing what they do. Mcyntyre and Reigns is obviously the build for Summerslam and they teased it just enough here to start building to that. This was a 6 man spotfest kind of match but everything was executed so well, and again, it benefitted from being the only type of that match on the card.

Maybe just my low expectations, but I thought this was great. My one complaint is that there was only one women's match. I'm not saying there has to necessarily be a quota, but it's hard to justify Omos, Corbin, and Moss having a spot on the card when Bianca Belair doesn't. In general, there is a problem with how many talented people are in the company and the amount of PPV time. I sort of liked it better when they had separate PPVs for Raw and Smackdown so you could cycle through people a little more. It's a catch 22, because I get why you want your biggest stars on every show, but then you don't get as much opportunity to build other people. You want to use your veterans but this show didn't exactly feature a lot of spring chickens.

If WWE put more time into their matches instead of Pre-Match packages and in-between skits they could easily fit twice as many feuds onto a card and still keep under 3 hours. I think like 60% of their PPV time is preamble and garbage nobody cares about or was on the pre-show or was already seen in Raw/Smackdown. 

when I go to Wikipedia after a PPV and see that half the matches are ten minutes or under, I just wonder how that's justified internally. This was a 3-hour PPV and only just over half of it (93 minutes, 45 seconds) was matches. and that's an abnormally high ratio! 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Runa216 said:
JWeinCom said:

Been a bit busy and not following wrestling as much, but Backlash was a very nice little surprise. I had low expectations that were blown away.

Rollins vs Rhodes was great. Old schoolish match with a story as Rollins was now prepared for everything Cody was doing and he had to adapt. But also had some great spots. Surprised they went with a rollup finish as I don't see where this feud goes unless they want to beat Rollins thrice. But great match.

Lashley vs Omos surprised. Omos is getting much better with his movement. He's not gonna be the next Big Show, but also probably not the next Khali. Having a guy that size who can make Lashley look like David instead of Goliath is an asset. Good Raw match quality, nothing more.

Rousey vs Flair was surprisingly good. Rousey does some things well, but transitions between spots isn't quite there yet. So, whoever said "ok make it I Quit so the ref can check on her between spots" deserves a raise. This also had the benefit of being the one true grudge match with weapons and all over brawling, which helped it stand off. Surprisingly exceeded Rollins and Rhodes for me.

Moss vs Corbin was, whatever. I sort of like the characters cause I love puns, but I'm not all that interested in seeing them fight. It was fine.

Edge vs AJ Styles was... ok. It's not that it wasn't really good, it's just that the chemistry between them just isn't what you'd expect it to be. Considering how good each person is, you'd expect it to be an all time classic, and it was good, just not that good.

The main event on the other hand was really good. All the people involved come off like stars. Because they scrapped the unification stip, it lacked stakes which made it hard to get into, but once they got rolling, it was just six really fucking good wrestlers doing what they do. Mcyntyre and Reigns is obviously the build for Summerslam and they teased it just enough here to start building to that. This was a 6 man spotfest kind of match but everything was executed so well, and again, it benefitted from being the only type of that match on the card.

Maybe just my low expectations, but I thought this was great. My one complaint is that there was only one women's match. I'm not saying there has to necessarily be a quota, but it's hard to justify Omos, Corbin, and Moss having a spot on the card when Bianca Belair doesn't. In general, there is a problem with how many talented people are in the company and the amount of PPV time. I sort of liked it better when they had separate PPVs for Raw and Smackdown so you could cycle through people a little more. It's a catch 22, because I get why you want your biggest stars on every show, but then you don't get as much opportunity to build other people. You want to use your veterans but this show didn't exactly feature a lot of spring chickens.

If WWE put more time into their matches instead of Pre-Match packages and in-between skits they could easily fit twice as many feuds onto a card and still keep under 3 hours. I think like 60% of their PPV time is preamble and garbage nobody cares about or was on the pre-show or was already seen in Raw/Smackdown. 

when I go to Wikipedia after a PPV and see that half the matches are ten minutes or under, I just wonder how that's justified internally. This was a 3-hour PPV and only just over half of it (93 minutes, 45 seconds) was matches. and that's an abnormally high ratio! 

I think video packages are important. You have to remember three things. First off, not everyone watches the shows weekly. I haven't been able to see much this month, so I needed the reminder. Second, there is a live audience, and sitting in event live is different than watching it at home. People need to get up, get snakcs, give WWE their merchandise money, take a piss, etc, and just to generally come down from a match to be ready to get energetic for the next. Third, these shows do not just air once. When I watch old PPVs from time to time, I have no idea why anyone was fighting anyone, and would be completely lost without the packages, so even if I was watching Raw and Smackdown religiously, I would still need those packages if I ever rewatched it.

I'm not saying the exact ratio is correct, but I don't think an average of 5 minutes of packages is unreasonable for most matches. And, a good chunk of the non-wrestling time is also entrances and I love me a good entrance. I generally don't feel super bothered about it when I'm watching the events. And of course, you don't necessarily have to watch it live, so you can always catch up the next day and skip through, although that does nothing to resolve the issues of not featuring enough talent.



In the Owen Hart memorial tournament, Darby Allin jumps off a ladder outside the ring, on Jeff Hardy who is lying on a pile of chairs.

Because the best way to honor Owen is by falling off something really high and risking your life. For fuck's sake someone should have thought that through.



JWeinCom said:

In the Owen Hart memorial tournament, Darby Allin jumps off a ladder outside the ring, on Jeff Hardy who is lying on a pile of chairs.

Because the best way to honor Owen is by falling off something really high and risking your life. For fuck's sake someone should have thought that through.

Jesus Christ, dude, why do you have to be such a buzzkill over everything that has to do with AEW?

I'm pretty sure they rehearsed that spot to be safe and Darby and Jeff wanted to do it.



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PAOerfulone said:
JWeinCom said:

In the Owen Hart memorial tournament, Darby Allin jumps off a ladder outside the ring, on Jeff Hardy who is lying on a pile of chairs.

Because the best way to honor Owen is by falling off something really high and risking your life. For fuck's sake someone should have thought that through.

Jesus Christ, dude, why do you have to be such a buzzkill over everything that has to do with AEW?

I'm pretty sure they rehearsed that spot to be safe and Darby and Jeff wanted to do it.

Hipster alert! (On JWeinCom). He has always been extra critical of AEW. no idea why, I guess he just has to be in the minority. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

PAOerfulone said:
JWeinCom said:

In the Owen Hart memorial tournament, Darby Allin jumps off a ladder outside the ring, on Jeff Hardy who is lying on a pile of chairs.

Because the best way to honor Owen is by falling off something really high and risking your life. For fuck's sake someone should have thought that through.

Jesus Christ, dude, why do you have to be such a buzzkill over everything that has to do with AEW?

I'm pretty sure they rehearsed that spot to be safe and Darby and Jeff wanted to do it.

Everything that has to do with AEW? Literally, first thing I've said about AEW in over a month.

It's a ridiculous spot to do in any situation, but the issue is that considering how Owen Heart died, a tournament honoring him is not the time and place for death defying stunts. It's like having the Princess Diana memorial drag race or the Great Sonny Bono Ski-off.

And no, they didn't rehearse it.

Jeff Hardy: “The coolest thing to me is there’s no rehearsals. WWE is crazy with rehearsals. Yeah, that’s the biggest thing for sure.”

https://wrestlingheadlines.com/jeff-hardy-talks-biggest-difference-between-aew-and-wwe-meeting-tony-khan/

Runa216 said:
PAOerfulone said:

Jesus Christ, dude, why do you have to be such a buzzkill over everything that has to do with AEW?

I'm pretty sure they rehearsed that spot to be safe and Darby and Jeff wanted to do it.

Hipster alert! (On JWeinCom). He has always been extra critical of AEW. no idea why, I guess he just has to be in the minority. 

If I wanted to be in the minority I'd be an AEW fan XD. I'm critical of things that suck when they suck. If I'm wrong, people are free to explain why, since that's how discussion works. Instead they tend to go straight to the "you're a hater", which leads me to believe the criticisms are valid.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 12 May 2022

BasilZero said:
JWeinCom said:

In the Owen Hart memorial tournament, Darby Allin jumps off a ladder outside the ring, on Jeff Hardy who is lying on a pile of chairs.

Because the best way to honor Owen is by falling off something really high and risking your life. For fuck's sake someone should have thought that through.

Did they have some sort of platform that they were on that would cushion the fall? Otherwise...yikes.

I was surprised that Hulu had WWE Raw/Smackdown/NXT.

I hope AEW ends up on HBO Max so I can have full access to all the wrestling shows...(not that I have the time to watch them lol)

Yeah Raw has been on Hulu for a while. They do cut some stuff out for time, but Raw is too long anyway, so it works.

AEW not being on a streaming service is the biggest thing against it. AEW tends to put bigger stuff on their TV show, but still makes me want to watch less if I'm not going to buy the PPVs and see the ultimate payoff to a lot of the feuds. And there's no way in hell I'm paying 50 bucks for any wrestling show. If their stuff was on a streaming service, you'd get a lot of people who are more casual or curious checking it out.

As for the spot, nope, no pad, off the top of a ladder onto Jeff who was sprawled across like 8 chairs. I for one don't think that was the way to honor Owen. I'm sure nobody intended any offense, but like I said, they should have thought it through. And, even aside from that, I think it's a ridiculously dangerous spot to do. Looked cool though, I'll give them that.



JWeinCom said:
Runa216 said:

Hipster alert! (On JWeinCom). He has always been extra critical of AEW. no idea why, I guess he just has to be in the minority. 

If I wanted to be in the minority I'd be an AEW fan XD. I'm critical of things that suck when they suck. If I'm wrong, people are free to explain why, since that's how discussion works. Instead they tend to go straight to the "you're a hater", which leads me to believe the criticisms are valid.

Suuuuuure...nevermind the fact that AEW regularly gets rave reviews, 5-star matches on PPV and weekly TV, and are constantly getting praise for the blend of silly, serious, and long-term storytelling both in the ring and out. 

But you go and focus on the bad. that tiny little minority of stuff that doesn't work or is poorly executed, you focus on that while others who like sports entertainment seek to be entertained by it. The rest of us will happily enjoy the blend of work rate and writing and storytelling that makes pro wrestling fun. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Runa216 said:
JWeinCom said:

If I wanted to be in the minority I'd be an AEW fan XD. I'm critical of things that suck when they suck. If I'm wrong, people are free to explain why, since that's how discussion works. Instead they tend to go straight to the "you're a hater", which leads me to believe the criticisms are valid.

Suuuuuure...nevermind the fact that AEW regularly gets rave reviews, 5-star matches on PPV and weekly TV, and are constantly getting praise for the blend of silly, serious, and long-term storytelling both in the ring and out. 

But you go and focus on the bad. that tiny little minority of stuff that doesn't work or is poorly executed, you focus on that while others who like sports entertainment seek to be entertained by it. The rest of us will happily enjoy the blend of work rate and writing and storytelling that makes pro wrestling fun. 


Yes, nobody could possibly legitimately dislike AEW programming, just like nobody with more than three brain cells could like WWE. XD It's like reading a press release. Such incredibly vague and meaningless praise. "Constantly getting rave reviews." From who? Randos on Twitter? I'm sure AEW fans constantly give it rave reviews, just like I could find plenty of people who don't like it and consistently say it sucks. If you have some quantified methodology here, maybe you should be taken seriously. But, the promotion has at best remained flat since its debut, and more realisticly has declined in popularity, despite a slew of major signings. The most objective sign we have about whether or not AEW is doing well are the ratings, which are going in the wrong direction. Or, we could look at youtube views. Check out the trend in their views totals over the years. If you want to go with the argument that it's objectively great and I just woke up one morning and said fuck AEW for no reason, you gotta explain that.

But really its irrelevant. I could offer a general critique of AEW, but since the issue here is that I'm apparently just so biased and anti-AEW, what I've already said should be plenty. Instead of just generic PR speak about how wonderful AEW is, go through my post history. Find the criticism that's invalid. If not, then explain why I shouldn't be able to post valid criticism without this kind of shitty response.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 13 May 2022