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Forums - General Discussion - How US tech corporations avoid taxes

Kirin_gaming said:
foodfather said:
I'm an accountant. My clients pay very little tax. If the big money making companies don't pay taxes, why should they?

Because they can't afford to exploit the loopholes, duh!

In all seriousness is not that hard to have untaxed income.For almost five years now I've had between 15k-35k of untaxed income every year by flipping cars and not register the car to my name, I think people just need to make more investments that are dealt mostly in cash.

While I get where you are coming from, there is a huge difference in your version of untaxed income versus these large corporations.

These large corporations are utilizing tax loopholes but (generally) are still following the laws. Your cash dealings are still technically taxable income, you are just lying on your taxes and choosing to not report this income.



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cfin2987@gmail.com said:
Ganoncrotch said:

It's not just Apples fault though, our gov here are attrocious at doing everything in their powers to fluff numbers, currently our unemployment figures are at their lowest in years.... that said all that happens now if you are unemployed here is you get shoehorned into a course to teach you some skills to help you get a job, when I came out of work for a year in IT I was being pushed into a 6 month course on ECDL, just so that I would not be "unemployed" technically, these courses are of course paid for by the Gov and you get the same unemployment payment for their duration, but as long as you aren't technically unemployed the Gov are fulfilling their duties to keeping people in jobs.... it's pathetic here it really is.

 

For anyone who doesn't know btw, ECDL is the European Computer Driving Licence, it is basically a course to show you how to turn on a PC, open internet explorer and send an email. Course of that going on here for 6 months, that is from people who know I'm a certified IT support staff member, MS certified and CompTIA, literally being shown how to plug in a PC just so I'm not "unemployed"

Could you not believe the useless propaganda fed to you please. It's just plain silly. If you don't like how it is being unemployed in Ireland, try another country, where you get nothing! You are literally whining about getting a free education and how you get unemployment for free and help too up skill. Also your "technical" unemployment statement is completely false and something that SF (the political IRA populist filth) would utter which is absolute nonsense. You were still being paid unemployment, a social welfare payment, so you were on the live register. 100% and I am sure of that. 

 

Fyi, it took me 2 weeks at 3 hours per week to do ecdl. If you were unemployed, and getting free money, it's not really within your remit to be whining about being too good for the education provided. You need to take a deep breathe, step back and realise that you are deepening the Irish stereotype of wanting everything for free while whining about it. You have exaggerated beyond belief above and you have ranted your sweet hatred for your country. I on the other hand love my country, I think you should be happy to be handed free money when you were unemployed while in the USA you'd be homeless and handed nothing. And if you couldn't get a job, do whatever they say to keep your free money. And NO ecdl doesn't take 6 weeks. And if you didn't like it, stop taking the dole or get a job!! Either that or enroll in college, claim back to education allowance and get a free spring board scheme. Let me guess? You'll exaggerate about that too and claim some kind of nonsense. Makes me furious! The only thing wrong with your story above is that they gave you money for doing nothing and then offered a free education course to you, and you didn't appreciate it. You wanted to sit at home playing video games!!

Other than the pathetic string of attempted insults in this I just stopped reading at the end of the first paragraph,

"

According to the latest figures from the Central Statistics Office, there are currently 296,000 people unemployed -- but there are another 509,900 potentially available for work.

This includes those in training courses, those staying in education due to lack of jobs, and the self-employed who are not entitled to jobseekers' payments. It also includes those in part-time work who want more. The official unemployment rate of 14.1pc would rise to closer to 23.3pc if this group of people were included."

Training courses are paid a wage basically by FAS > Now ETB (you know it was semi reformed and renamed because of what the group stands for) but they are not a part of the "unemployed" in Ireland, but you being 100% sure of that doesn't surprise me based on the rest of this post.

Also while ECDL is just fine and Dandy, being sat inside it with Qualifications far above that among other people 1 of whom held a CCNA Qualification, so yeah ECDL is great, but there is no reason in the universe to put people on that course who have worked doing IT support for a large industry and College here or someone who deals in SISCO routing and networking... neither of us need to know how to switch on a PC.

Quote is taken from - if you want to dispute the fact that training course are counted as unemployed for the live register, do so with a link to your reasoning not just sad little insults http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/farce-as-fas-puts-jobless-on-courses-a-second-time-26760581.html

 

edit - Just going to point out, in case you think this is an invite to a discussion with me, it isn't, after your posts to myself and others during this thread I've zero interest in a back and forth with you on this site again.



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Baalzamon said:
Kirin_gaming said:

Because they can't afford to exploit the loopholes, duh!

In all seriousness is not that hard to have untaxed income.For almost five years now I've had between 15k-35k of untaxed income every year by flipping cars and not register the car to my name, I think people just need to make more investments that are dealt mostly in cash.

While I get where you are coming from, there is a huge difference in your version of untaxed income versus these large corporations.

These large corporations are utilizing tax loopholes but (generally) are still following the laws. Your cash dealings are still technically taxable income, you are just lying on your taxes and choosing to not report this income.

Imo if people exchange in peer to peer exchange of good and services for cash..why would one want to pay the tax. I know people say government needs cash to do its job but to most it seems it needs for cash to be more corrupt.



Netyaroze said:
Xbrah said:
It is ridiculous that the EU commission can tell Ireland to do anything about their taxes. Ireland is a sovereign country and should have complete dominion over their taxes, compliance and tax collection. It is totally up to the country whether they charge 50% or .001% in corporation tax and then instead tax the workers personal income at a larger or smaller rate to compensate.

A few years ago during the financial crisis, Ireland was blackmailed by the ECB to take a bailout instead of allowing European (mainly German) investors lose their worthless investments. Where was the EU commission then?

The only outcome of this will be that it will hurt a small peripheral open economy. It will destroy jobs and future growth. (Ireland is currently the fastest growing country in the EU according to GDP).

Where did they even come up with this 13 billion? It is a totally outrageous figure and almost double what the highest estimate was in the lead up to the investigation.
It stinks of a cash grab and a step towards tax harmonisation... Which will only benefit central EU countries such as Germany, France and Denmark, who are most responsible for this investigation.

It just goes to show the imbalance of power and the bullying of smaller nations. During a football match between Germany and Ireland... The German commentators kept calling the Irish team, the "potato men" when they were beating the home team.
They didn't even accept the vote years ago on the Nice treaty. When it was defeated, they put it to Ireland again a few months later. How is that democratic?

The thing is Ireland granted Apple a Taxbenefit they did not give to other companies. They enjoy the benefits of the EU Market. Apple would not be there in the first place without Ireland being in the EU.

There are certain rules that every country has to follow that is in the EU its written in books and every country agrees to that.

Their elected officials agree to that. Also the benefit would be good for Ireland. As Apple can not really abandon Ireland they need to be there for their EU Buisness.

The 13 Billion would go to pay off part of Irelands dept. Which in turn would improve credit ratings and Ireland would have to pay less interest which could be invested in other things like Infrastructures. Ireland really has no place to complain that they have to follow rules they agreed up on. Lets think about it without being in the EU there would have been no money from Apple before and definetly no money now from them.

Same for other companies. Ireland has the right to set their own taxes but they also have to follow EU Regulations in doing so and since Apple used a special Loophole so they would not even have to pay the 12.5% which by EU regulations was not allowed they pretty much can not do anything. 

Nobody in  Ireland should complain as Ireland could have his cake (get Apple to be there) And now EU makes sure that Ireland eats the cake aswell.  And best thing is there will be more cake in the future. So EU benefited Ireland in countless ways. 

Apple pays just a months profits to EU thats nothing for them as of right now the Billions are just on accounts numbers that nobody uses and cant be transported to USA as there would be a huge cut for the IRS which Apple does not want to give. 

The case is also not decided should Ireland be in the right Apple will not have to pay anything if Ireland went against EU Legislation  then Apple will have to give money to Ireland.  And Ireland has to begrudingly accept piles of cash. 

Apple have been in Ireland for 33 years... They have a very long history in the country. I find it hilarious now that the company is the largest in the world by market value, that the commission has gone for this cash grab. Yet back 13 years ago the company was nearly bankrupt. So the commission is fining a billion per year since the time they were almost bankrupt....

 

Many countries in Europe give grants to companies for locating in there geographic area. These help with building a facility, recruitment and reducing fees of all types. So why is Ireland being chosen for setting its tax rate? 

 

The competition committee has never ruled on tax matters previously to this and usually they deal with mergers and acquisitions within the European Union. That is their bread and butter. When we joined the EU , we did so as a sovereign nation with the understanding between us and the EU that our tax rate was untouchable and they had no say in these matters. 

It is our only competitive edge against bigger and more central countries in the EU. 

Without this we may as well leave the EU immediately. It is not in any way worth staying in it. If we have to charge apple 13 billion then small peripheral countries should decide taxes in central Europe ...  How would Germany like if we said they had to charge a corporate tax of 50% or more due to their advantageous location, fantastic infrastructure and vast resources ad well as great influence within the EU? 

I think that they would laugh and give the middle finger.... All they care about is themselves.



Netyaroze said:
Stefan.De.Machtige said:

Lol. You clearly understand nothing of debt, my friend. Debt is fiat and fiat is debt.

If you wish to know, why the world debt can and will never be repayed, please watch the link below:

Link

It's part 4 of 5 part series. It gives a nice history lesson about the very nature of money.

I saw this video already, the whole series.  Money symbolizes debt. Debt can not be eliminated but reduced.

That is very nice to hear :). These days not many people chose to learn things like that outside the mainstream media. It's getting me down lately.

But then i'm not sure i understand your point for the paying off since it doesn't matter who pays or even for what reason. The system can only fail or at best reset on behalf off the money changers. Starve the beast as some say. Apple is not doing for the right reasons though.



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Xbrah said:
Netyaroze said:

The thing is Ireland granted Apple a Taxbenefit they did not give to other companies. They enjoy the benefits of the EU Market. Apple would not be there in the first place without Ireland being in the EU.

There are certain rules that every country has to follow that is in the EU its written in books and every country agrees to that.

Their elected officials agree to that. Also the benefit would be good for Ireland. As Apple can not really abandon Ireland they need to be there for their EU Buisness.

The 13 Billion would go to pay off part of Irelands dept. Which in turn would improve credit ratings and Ireland would have to pay less interest which could be invested in other things like Infrastructures. Ireland really has no place to complain that they have to follow rules they agreed up on. Lets think about it without being in the EU there would have been no money from Apple before and definetly no money now from them.

Same for other companies. Ireland has the right to set their own taxes but they also have to follow EU Regulations in doing so and since Apple used a special Loophole so they would not even have to pay the 12.5% which by EU regulations was not allowed they pretty much can not do anything. 

Nobody in  Ireland should complain as Ireland could have his cake (get Apple to be there) And now EU makes sure that Ireland eats the cake aswell.  And best thing is there will be more cake in the future. So EU benefited Ireland in countless ways. 

Apple pays just a months profits to EU thats nothing for them as of right now the Billions are just on accounts numbers that nobody uses and cant be transported to USA as there would be a huge cut for the IRS which Apple does not want to give. 

The case is also not decided should Ireland be in the right Apple will not have to pay anything if Ireland went against EU Legislation  then Apple will have to give money to Ireland.  And Ireland has to begrudingly accept piles of cash. 

Apple have been in Ireland for 33 years... They have a very long history in the country. I find it hilarious now that the company is the largest in the world by market value, that the commission has gone for this cash grab. Yet back 13 years ago the company was nearly bankrupt. So the commission is fining a billion per year since the time they were almost bankrupt....

 

Many countries in Europe give grants to companies for locating in there geographic area. These help with building a facility, recruitment and reducing fees of all types. So why is Ireland being chosen for setting its tax rate? 

 

The competition committee has never ruled on tax matters previously to this and usually they deal with mergers and acquisitions within the European Union. That is their bread and butter. When we joined the EU , we did so as a sovereign nation with the understanding between us and the EU that our tax rate was untouchable and they had no say in these matters. 

It is our only competitive edge against bigger and more central countries in the EU. 

Without this we may as well leave the EU immediately. It is not in any way worth staying in it. If we have to charge apple 13 billion then small peripheral countries should decide taxes in central Europe ...  How would Germany like if we said they had to charge a corporate tax of 50% or more due to their advantageous location, fantastic infrastructure and vast resources ad well as great influence within the EU? 

I think that they would laugh and give the middle finger.... All they care about is themselves.

Well we will see what they will rule. In the end Ireland agreed to the terms when they joined. They could have vetoed any development they disliked after they joined. Apple would have never invested those Billions if Ireland would not have been in the EU as they need to be inside the EU to get easy access to the EU market. 

Also can you explain to me in which way Ireland will suffer ? They offer still the best corporate tax. So its not like this advantage will go away. Many countries give companies tax breaks true but they have to be equally given to all companies under same conditions. Apple had an unfair advantage or why havent all the Irish companies done the same thing and payed similary cheap taxes ?? 

This is an unfair competitive advantage. Ireland and Apple will get to argue their case. So we will see in the end who was right. EU rules are EU rules Eu legislation is EU legislation every country has the same terms. And every country had a voice when agreeing to those rules. 



Stefan.De.Machtige said:
Netyaroze said:

I saw this video already, the whole series.  Money symbolizes debt. Debt can not be eliminated but reduced.

That is very nice to hear :). These days not many people chose to learn things like that outside the mainstream media. It's getting me down lately.

But then i'm not sure i understand your point for the paying off since it doesn't matter who pays or even for what reason. The system can only fail or at best reset on behalf off the money changers. Starve the beast as some say. Apple is not doing for the right reasons though.

In the big picture it wont change anything, subjectively it can change alot and ease the burden of the Irish people a bit. Apple wont suffer anyway so on a small scale its better.



zero129 said:
Ganoncrotch said:
I'm actually so ashamed of Ireland right now, it's pathetic our gov will do anything to try to make it appear that we aren't a terribly run state, literally offering companies a way to launder money in our country just so that it appears we have business's interested in moving here for legit reasons and to put people in jobs... but in reality now even those jobs are not payed wages from the companies but we have government job placement schemes which rather than companies having to hire employees and pay them a wage our gov pays the wages for them...

Not only have the Gov here been allowing the country be used as a back door into the EU market without paying the door fees... but now also they are starting to Use the Tax payers money here to actually fight the ruling that we should have been charging Apple a normal amount of tax... or any fucking Tax at all. Our Gov is literally spending money to turn down money... just to try to keep a company here... who brings nothing to the country but instead uses it to get it's stock into and out of the EU market.

Come on now, how else is our taoiseach going to keep getting payed more then Obama. They need to keep that money rolling into their pockets somehow.

I heard that stat before, I'm sure Obama must get some other benefits though than just the basic pay part? or Does Enda really get more money than the head of the free world, sad times if true.



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zero129 said:
Ganoncrotch said:

I heard that stat before, I'm sure Obama must get some other benefits though than just the basic pay part? or Does Enda really get more money than the head of the free world, sad times if true.

To be honest im not really sure. I just remember reading it awhile back and was pretty shocked if true.

I do know he is the 3rd best payed european leader. Imo still way way too much money for any leader imo, as i believe our leaders should be on a standard wage so only people who really want the job and want to help the country would take it. We should also follow Icelands lead and banish/lock up all our bankers xD .

Aye a big paycheque is a fairly bad reason to get into a position and also means that they might not be the best with funds if they're so removed from the rest of society but yeah I probably seen the same report you did on the wages and just didn't look into it out of disgust at the thought there was any truth to it. The fact that half of the Irish gov gets a wage at all is a dissappointment.



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Soundwave said:
Yeah but illegal immigrants cost us 1/1000th of what these corporations do. Lets be mad at them instead.

I'm not sure about their financial impact, but its a appears a lot of crime is commited by a relatively small illegal popular. That's the primary concern we can do more to deter. Doing so would also lower concerns about illegal immigrants.



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