scrapking said:
Azuren said:
Anecdotal evidence is simply anecdotal. It's not there to prove anything, it's there because it shows that being vegan isn't as cut-and-dry as vegans want people to think. Vegans do tend to be thinner, but that's almost never because they're healthy be ause most vegans don't know how to properly be vegan in a healthy way. Many are like my brother: changing diet with only the okay from a rabidly vegan dietician (the worst kind of dietician).
As far as the "fish are tainted" argument is concerned, first of all a healthy diet includes one, maybe two meat-centric meals a week, so most of those fears are quashed fairly quickly by moderation. And as far as the polluted argument as a whole is concerned, you'd have to be grossly naive to think your fruits and veggies are noticeably better.
And you're still getting B12 in readily available sources, as opposed to your leafy greens that were "washed in rainwater" (Warning: WILL contain levels of feces that can dip into what the FCC would refer to as unacceptable). B12 is just something you're not going to get enough of as a vegan.
And more readily absorbed protein is that which has been processed by animals more fit for a vegan diet.
Never said it was only in fish, I said "almost exclusive". And surprise: the omegas you get from flax and algae are- you guessed it- not readily absorbed by the human body.
Most B12 supplements are derived from animal B12. The process to extract B12 from bacteria into pill form isn't a widely used practice for whatever reason, making truly vegan B12 hard to get.
As for this next paragraph, you pretty much dismiss every "Veganism can be healthy" argument, since most rely heavily on supplements. Yes, you can do it without, but only the most hardcore will do so.
And what? My anecdotal evidence is null and void but yours isn't?
As a closing statement on this post, humans have had meat in their diet from long before they even invented tools. We're talking tens of thousands of years, across multiple species and continents. Not only that, but there's never been a functioning vegan society. Sure, some societies had less access to meat, but it was because of scarcity, not conscious decision. You can be vegan, and if it works for you, fine. But don't lie to people about the potential danger of such a drastic diet change, because then you get scenarios where quack doctors pissing an agenda end up actively causing harm to people like my brother.
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I didn’t say your anecdotal evidence is bad and mine is good. Over the course of this thread, I’ve provided dozens of citations. I occasionally add anecdotes to my comments as well (usually my personal experience), but those are simply to add texture to my citations. You provided no citations, yet made claims, and provided nothing other than an anecdote to support your claim.
Nothing is cut and dried when it comes to an individual, but things can be cut and dried when it comes to population studies. If only vegans average (note the word average) in the healthy BMI range, and every other group (including vegetarians) average above the healthy BMI range, then that’s important and valuable research that makes your anecdotes and mine equally irrelevant. You then go on to say that vegans are thinner “but that's almost never because they're healthy,” and this is where your argument falls apart as you are making an important claim, with nothing other than an anecdote to back it up. In fact, study after study shows that vegans typically *are* healthy. They don’t average in the underweight zone, they average in the healthy BMI zone, and I’ve previously provided a citation for that. Sedentary vegans have better heart health than marathon-running omnivores on average, and I’ve previously provided a citation for that. Vegans are less likely to get a raft of cancers than omnivores, and I’ve previous provided a citation for that. They’re less likely to get heart disease, to suffer a stroke, to have erectile dysfunction, etc.
A vegan dietitian is the worst kind of dietitian? You come off sounding like you have an axe to grind. I think the worst kind of dietitian is one who is behind on the best/most independent (not funded by vested interests) science and/or doesn’t communicate the best science to their clients for fear that they won’t stick to it. I’d rather dietitians give it to people straight, and let people make their own compromises.
Fruits and veggies are as polluted in mercury and PCBs as fish? Again with your bold, unsupported claims. The foods highest in PCBs are all animal products: http://www.dirksfish.com/pdf_files/PCBs_in_Food.pdf Similarly, the foods highest in mercury are animal foods: https://www.livestrong.com/article/318127-list-of-foods-that-are-high-in-mercury/ Importantly, fruits and vegetables have potent anti-oxidant abilities, so they’re typically less likely to be contaminated and they’re more likely to help the body cope with what contaminants it does get exposed to (such as all that Fukushima radiation that got dumped into the ocean, as one example). http://www.hungryforchange.tv/article/19-foods-to-naturally-detox-radiation
Again with the B12. Did you read my previous posts? I’m genuinely curious. B12 comes from bacteria. Factory farmed animals are given B12 supplements. If you eat meat from the grocery store or a restaurant, odds are high that you’re getting supplemented B12 yourself. Getting a B12 supplement filtered through an animal’s body, rather than just taking one directly, isn’t a very compelling argument to me. As for your claim that most B12 supplements aren’t vegan, I have done several web searches and have been unable to corroborate your claim. So without a source from you, I’m not sure what to make of your claim.
Your protein argument is a non-scientific argument that has been roundly debunked. Vegans have similar blood levels of protein to omnivores. Most people, vegans included, absorb more protein than is ideal for optimal health. So less readily absorbable protein is if anything *ideal* for optimal human health. There’s growing evidence that an abundance of protein in the diet has an anti-nutrient effect on the body, tying up your your body trying (and largely failing) to absorb excess protein when it could and should be focused on absorbing other nutrients instead.
I would be surprised if your uncited and unsubstantiated claim that the omegas from flax seed weren’t readily absorbable by the body, since the science says otherwise. The omega 3s in ground flaxseed are readily absorbable. I *think* you may be confusion the arguments around absorption vs. the arguments around ALA conversion.
As for absorbing omega 3s from algae? Dah fuk? The nutrients in algae are some of the most readily absorbable on the planet. You do know that algae is the source for omega 3s for the fish, right?
You then claim only the hardcore will be healthy on a vegan diet without supplements, but again the facts suggest otherwise. I’ve previously provided a citation that the average vegan in the U.S. is deficient in 3 essential nutrients, but that the average omnivore in the U.S. is deficient in 7 essential nutrients, for example. The majority of the supplement industry is marketed towards omnivores, it’s only a small sub-set of the industry that chooses to offer its products in what it designates as vegan (eg. egg-free, dairy-free, gelatin-free, etc.). Most either aren’t vegan, or don’t choose to market themselves as vegan, as omnivores are their target audience. Obviously that makes sense since omnivores are the majority of the population, but it does speak to the fact that millions of omnivores choose to supplement. So the supplement argument is a non-starter, especially since vegans statistically are less deficient on average than omnivores.
I find it interesting that you even offer a “closing statement” as if you were trying to prove your case. You haven’t many claims but no citations, so offering a closing statement is premature. I disagree with much of what you’ve said, and have previously provided a large number of citations as to why I disagree.
Again with your claims that ancient societies all had a meat-based focus, or high levels of meat in their diet. Again, rehydrated fossilized human stool, hair analysis, and more differs from that claim. Citations previously provided if you scroll back.
Finally, you end by calling me a liar. You haven’t provided a single citation, I’ve provided dozens, and I’m a liar? That’s pretty damn crazy, you realize that right? I’m not lying at all, this is what I personally believe, this is what I’m personally experiencing, and this is what the evidence is showing. Vegans in general are healthier than omnivores in general. Look at my previously posted citation to the Adventist studies. They pit healthy omnivores vs. healthy vegetarians vs. healthy vegans (since adventists tend to take their overall health very seriously). The vegans suffered less cancer, less heart disease, less diabetes, and less overall mortality. You believe based on your relative’s experience that it’s hard to be healthy as a vegan, but the evidence doesn’t bear that out. When I see all the omnivores dropping dead of heart disease, and stroke, and diabetes, it seems like being a healthy omnivore is what’s perilously hard.
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