By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Is becoming a vegetarian/vegan worth it?

Shadow1980 said:
[...]

2) The human intestinal tract is closer to 4-5 times the body length on average, not 9.

[...]

My understanding is that the proper calculation for this is not x-times-body length, but x-times-trunk length.  Our intestines are about 9-times trunk length.  This sometimes gets mis-stated as body length, but trunk length is how it's actually calculated for mammals.

As for the rest.  The reality is that each side of this debate can point to different traits to prove their point.  It seems to me that if you add them up, however, about 2/3rds of our traits tend towards the herbivorous side of the spectrum, for what that's worth.  No definition is perfect, or without exceptions, and perhaps we're an exception too.

Or perhaps not.  I think it's broadly accepted that we evolved eating mostly fruit (back when fruits were kind of halfway between a modern fruit and vegetable).  That's perhaps one of the reasons why we may see colours, whereas many carnivores and omnivores cannot perceive colour.

I think the most accepted modern thinking is that we can eat both plants and animals, but that plants are mandatory or that (short of supplementation) we'll get scurvy and die.  Eating animals is optional, every nutrient available from an animal source is also available from a plant source (yes, even B12).  Broadly accepted modern thinking appears to be that we've been eating plants longer than we've been eating animals and, as such, we're better adapted to eating plants than we are animals.  Finally, the preponderence of the best evidence is that the growth in chronic disease is from the increasing amounts of animal products and refined foods in our diet.

Government health agencies that remove research funded by vested interests (whether it's a dairy marketing board, or the rice lobby, or what have you), are suggesting people should focus on whole plant foods and reduce their meat/dairy/egg consumption (such as the recent draft Canadian government health guidelines that raised beans above meat for protein, etc.).  The vested interest research is all over the place, but the independent research is coming up with an extremely consistent message.



Around the Network

I've been a vegan for 3 months now for health benefit and I don't agree with all of the chemicals/drugs pumped into the animals which we then eat....it's been amazing the food is so much more tastier. Would literally never go back.



d21lewis said:

I've been doing it this week. Only ate apples, salad, and almonds since Monday. I feel great. Don't even miss it. It's just temporary, though.

I realize I have a lot more energy but I also feel a lot weaker.

possibly the stupidest thing I have read on this site to date...



Aeolus451 said:

You understood what I meant. I wrote that late at night. Anyway, I was talking about the actual definition of omnivore and humans fit it perfectly. The fact that humans require a daily intake of nutrients from both plants and animals proves that humans are omnivores. We're meant to consume both plant and animal daily. 

You're incorrect.  Almost no health agency on the planet suggests any requirement for any amount of animal products for optimal health.  So that's false.  Animals get their nutrients from plants, and then we eat the animals, so it's just a question of whether you go to the source or filter your nutrients through animals.  It's a falsehood that we require animal products for health.  And we lack a lot of biological elements common to omnivores, such as we lack the ability to get rid of cholesterol.  Dogs can.  Wolves can.  We cannot.

That's a big deal.  Researchers started to notice a strong correlation between heart disease and impotence.  And then they realized it wasn't just a correlation, they were the same disease.  In both cases, cholesterol plaque was clogging up the body.  In the case of heart disease it was the arteries leading to the heart.  In the case of impotence, it was cholesterol plaque clogging up the penile artery.  (Yes, emotional factors often come into play with impotence too, but it's frequently an initial 'failure to perform' that kicks off the emotional spiral.)  This was on top of the previously identified correlation between heart and stroke, and a new correlation subsequently observed with several previously unexplained neurological diseases.  It turns out all these diseases were the same disease, cholesterol plaque clogging up different parts of the body.  They have tried to give these diseases to obligate omnivores in controlled conditions and failed, because their bodies are successful at getting rid of the excess cholesterol.

Humans traditionally ate very little cholesterol in our early evolution, as in the cradle of civilization in Africa we largely ate plants.  Our bodies make cholesterol, but rarely in excess so a mechanism to get rid of it wasn't necessary.  Similarly, we once had a gene to produce vitamin C, but we were eating so many plant foods rich in vitamin C that the gene deactivated in humans hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Now vested interests are trying to convince us that eating cholesterol has no bearing on heart disease, and funding science that tries to come to that conclusion.  But they're useful poor scientific method and these studies are rarely submitted to peer review and are being roundly ignored by most public health agencies.  The preponderence of the best and most independent science continues to tell us that eating cholesterol raises cholesterol in the body, and that increases the odds of a raft of chronic diseases.

Pair that all up with the fact that there's no disease that's caused by a lack of meat in the diet, like there is for the lack of sufficient plant foods in the diet (scurvy), and the conclusion seems pretty apparent to me.  Eating a broad spectrum of whole plant foods is optimal for human health.

(Citations for everything I've said before has either been previously provided by me, or is available upon request for any point you'd like more info on.)



busbfran said:
d21lewis said:

I've been doing it this week. Only ate apples, salad, and almonds since Monday. I feel great. Don't even miss it. It's just temporary, though.

I realize I have a lot more energy but I also feel a lot weaker.

possibly the stupidest thing I have read on this site to date...

You just not have been paying attention. I've said MUCH stupider!

 

*Edit*

I'll explain, though. I was trying to lose weight in a short amount of time so I totally eliminated certain things from my diet until I reached my goal. Basically a weight loss diet of my own design.

 

I felt more energetic but I think I lost muscle mass as well.

Last edited by d21lewis - on 31 October 2017

Around the Network
SvennoJ said:

I rather be a marathon running omnivore than a sedentary vegan :)

Frozen produce just tastes bland to me, I don't very much like it. It's easier to make something that tastes good with meat in it. This time of year my diet is mostly brocoli, cauliflower and squash when it comes to vegetables, besides the regular onions, mushrooms and garlic on the side. Occosionally a chunky roasted red pepper soup with carrots and peas in chicken broth, and some fresh honey garlic sausages. Frozen yoghurt for desert.

Perhaps if I had a chef that could cook awesome vegan meals I would be willing to try it out for a month, see if I still feel as energized to cycle 130km in a day. Yet I don't have that, and rather play video games instead of planning meals.

Besides what's the prize? Living to be frail at 90+ while shuffling around trying to remember who you are... Actually my grandfather was still in good shape afer 90 while always eating meat. It was not his heart nor cancer that got him in the end, more not being able to do the things he loved anymore, kinda lost interest in staying alive.

Interesting similarities.  Not only do we both live in Canada, but I'm also a cyclist.  :)

There's a bit of a myth to aging.  The idea that we inevitably get frail as we age is being challenged.  As we look at the Okinawans, the Tarahumara, the Adventist vegetarians, etc., we're seeing these highly plant-based populations are also unusually vibrant in old age.  One recent study of 4200 autopsies found that not one of them died "of old age", all of them died of disease.  Even people who lived to be over 100 clearly died of a disease.  As we age our defences against disease drop, but diet and lifestyle choices can protect against that.  A plant-based diet reduces systemic inflammation in the body (vs. animal products which promote inflammation).  An active lifestyle can keep the body more supple (the "use it or lose it" philosophy has a lot of truth in it).  If you eat anti-inflammatory foods and stay active, you significantly improve your odds of being vibrant into your 90s.



scrapking said:
Azuren said:

Anecdotal evidence is simply anecdotal. It's not there to prove anything, it's there because it shows that being vegan isn't as cut-and-dry as vegans want people to think. Vegans do tend to be thinner, but that's almost never because they're healthy be ause most vegans don't know how to properly be vegan in a healthy way. Many are like my brother: changing diet with only the okay from a rabidly vegan dietician (the worst kind of dietician).

 

As far as the "fish are tainted" argument is concerned, first of all a healthy diet includes one, maybe two meat-centric meals a week, so most of those fears are quashed fairly quickly by moderation. And as far as the polluted argument as a whole is concerned, you'd have to be grossly naive to think your fruits and veggies are noticeably better.

 

And you're still getting B12 in readily available sources, as opposed to your leafy greens that were "washed in rainwater" (Warning: WILL contain levels of feces that can dip into what the FCC would refer to as unacceptable). B12 is just something you're not going to get enough of as a vegan.

 

And more readily absorbed protein is that which has been processed by animals more fit for a vegan diet.

 

Never said it was only in fish, I said "almost exclusive". And surprise: the omegas you get from flax and algae are- you guessed it- not readily absorbed by the human body.

 

Most B12 supplements are derived from animal B12. The process to extract B12 from bacteria into pill form isn't a widely used practice for whatever reason, making truly vegan B12 hard to get.

 

As for this next paragraph, you pretty much dismiss every "Veganism can be healthy"  argument, since most rely heavily on supplements. Yes, you can do it without, but only the most hardcore will do so.

 

And what? My anecdotal evidence is null and void but yours isn't?

 

As a closing statement on this post, humans have had meat in their diet from long before they even invented tools. We're talking tens of thousands of years, across multiple species and continents. Not only that, but there's never been a functioning vegan society. Sure, some societies had less access to meat, but it was because of scarcity, not conscious decision. You can be vegan, and if it works for you, fine. But don't lie to people about the potential danger of such a drastic diet change, because then you get scenarios where quack doctors pissing an agenda end up actively causing harm to people like my brother.

I didn’t say your anecdotal evidence is bad and mine is good.  Over the course of this thread, I’ve provided dozens of citations.  I occasionally add anecdotes to my comments as well (usually my personal experience), but those are simply to add texture to my citations.  You provided no citations, yet made claims, and provided nothing other than an anecdote to support your claim.

Nothing is cut and dried when it comes to an individual, but things can be cut and dried when it comes to population studies.  If only vegans average (note the word average) in the healthy BMI range, and every other group (including vegetarians) average above the healthy BMI range, then that’s important and valuable research that makes your anecdotes and mine equally irrelevant.  You then go on to say that vegans are thinner “but that's almost never because they're healthy,” and this is where your argument falls apart as you are making an important claim, with nothing other than an anecdote to back it up.  In fact, study after study shows that vegans typically *are* healthy.  They don’t average in the underweight zone, they average in the healthy BMI zone, and I’ve previously provided a citation for that.  Sedentary vegans have better heart health than marathon-running omnivores on average, and I’ve previously provided a citation for that.  Vegans are less likely to get a raft of cancers than omnivores, and I’ve previous provided a citation for that.  They’re less likely to get heart disease, to suffer a stroke, to have erectile dysfunction, etc.

A vegan dietitian is the worst kind of dietitian?  You come off sounding like you have an axe to grind.  I think the worst kind of dietitian is one who is behind on the best/most independent (not funded by vested interests) science and/or doesn’t communicate the best science to their clients for fear that they won’t stick to it.  I’d rather dietitians give it to people straight, and let people make their own compromises.

Fruits and veggies are as polluted in mercury and PCBs as fish?  Again with your bold, unsupported claims.  The foods highest in PCBs are all animal products:  http://www.dirksfish.com/pdf_files/PCBs_in_Food.pdf  Similarly, the foods highest in mercury are animal foods:  https://www.livestrong.com/article/318127-list-of-foods-that-are-high-in-mercury/  Importantly, fruits and vegetables have potent anti-oxidant abilities, so they’re typically less likely to be contaminated and they’re more likely to help the body cope with what contaminants it does get exposed to (such as all that Fukushima radiation that got dumped into the ocean, as one example).  http://www.hungryforchange.tv/article/19-foods-to-naturally-detox-radiation

Again with the B12.  Did you read my previous posts?  I’m genuinely curious.  B12 comes from bacteria.  Factory farmed animals are given B12 supplements.  If you eat meat from the grocery store or a restaurant, odds are high that you’re getting supplemented B12 yourself.  Getting a B12 supplement filtered through an animal’s body, rather than just taking one directly, isn’t a very compelling argument to me.  As for your claim that most B12 supplements aren’t vegan, I have done several web searches and have been unable to corroborate your claim.  So without a source from you, I’m not sure what to make of your claim.

Your protein argument is a non-scientific argument that has been roundly debunked.  Vegans have similar blood levels of protein to omnivores.  Most people, vegans included, absorb more protein than is ideal for optimal health.  So less readily absorbable protein is if anything *ideal* for optimal human health.  There’s growing evidence that an abundance of protein in the diet has an anti-nutrient effect on the body, tying up your your body trying (and largely failing) to absorb excess protein when it could and should be focused on absorbing other nutrients instead.

I would be surprised if your uncited and unsubstantiated claim that the omegas from flax seed weren’t readily absorbable by the body, since the science says otherwise.  The omega 3s in ground flaxseed are readily absorbable.  I *think* you may be confusion the arguments around absorption vs. the arguments around ALA conversion.

As for absorbing omega 3s from algae?  Dah fuk?  The nutrients in algae are some of the most readily absorbable on the planet.  You do know that algae is the source for omega 3s for the fish, right?

You then claim only the hardcore will be healthy on a vegan diet without supplements, but again the facts suggest otherwise.  I’ve previously provided a citation that the average vegan in the U.S. is deficient in 3 essential nutrients, but that the average omnivore in the U.S. is deficient in 7 essential nutrients, for example.  The majority of the supplement industry is marketed towards omnivores, it’s only a small sub-set of the industry that chooses to offer its products in what it designates as vegan (eg. egg-free, dairy-free, gelatin-free, etc.).  Most either aren’t vegan, or don’t choose to market themselves as vegan, as omnivores are their target audience.  Obviously that makes sense since omnivores are the majority of the population, but it does speak to the fact that millions of omnivores choose to supplement.  So the supplement argument is a non-starter, especially since vegans statistically are less deficient on average than omnivores.

I find it interesting that you even offer a “closing statement” as if you were trying to prove your case.  You haven’t many claims but no citations, so offering a closing statement is premature.  I disagree with much of what you’ve said, and have previously provided a large number of citations as to why I disagree.

Again with your claims that ancient societies all had a meat-based focus, or high levels of meat in their diet.  Again, rehydrated fossilized human stool, hair analysis, and more differs from that claim.  Citations previously provided if you scroll back.

Finally, you end by calling me a liar.  You haven’t provided a single citation, I’ve provided dozens, and I’m a liar?  That’s pretty damn crazy, you realize that right?  I’m not lying at all, this is what I personally believe, this is what I’m personally experiencing, and this is what the evidence is showing.  Vegans in general are healthier than omnivores in general.  Look at my previously posted citation to the Adventist studies.  They pit healthy omnivores vs. healthy vegetarians vs. healthy vegans (since adventists tend to take their overall health very seriously).  The vegans suffered less cancer, less heart disease, less diabetes, and less overall mortality.  You believe based on your relative’s experience that it’s hard to be healthy as a vegan, but the evidence doesn’t bear that out.  When I see all the omnivores dropping dead of heart disease, and stroke, and diabetes, it seems like being a healthy omnivore is what’s perilously hard.

I'm going to just assume you're taking statistics out of context and lean on those until your thyroids give up and you're forced to adopt meat into your diet. "Only vegans have healthy BMI"? Really? Let's look at the rest of the statistics: how many of those people are active? How many don't have time to exercise because of life events? How many live in countries where $1 burgers are a thing? Vegans have a healthy BMI because it's a diet that lacks fat almost entirely, so there's less need to exercise. But, you know, keep drawing whatever conclusions you want. Fact of the matter is veganism is a diet that supports inactive lifestyles, which is what the world has very rapidly become over the last thirty years.

 

The point on fruits and vegetables wasn't a "oh, they have Mercury" comment. It was a "nothing is healthy when you overanalyze everything" comment. Which is true unless you grow your own food in soil you received from a place that industrial man has never touched. But you know, keep it up with the out of context shenanigans.

 

B12 again, let me spell it out for you: omnivores don't care where it comes from. And they get it. Grats to them. Vegans do, and most B12 supplements are animal-based. No, I don't have a citation, because I don't have time to troll the internet for it. All I have is the word of a real dietician. Take it how you want, but I'll be laughing all the way to the bank when you use B12 supplements that have animal biproducts in it.

 

Plant-based omegas are ALA, which have to be converted into EPA or DHA to be used. The conversion rates for those are 21% and below, even lower for men. So no, they're not readily absorbed- like most plant nutrients, everything you get from flax and algae have to be converted into something else before your body can take it. Th e reason it's more readily absorbed by fish meat is because ]it was already processed by the fish. It'st kind of silly how you pretty much already pointed out the flaw in vegan logic, but acted like it was nothing.

 

Most vegans are super unhealthy because they have no idea how to be vegan. You can throw citations at me all you want, but you are, again, forgetting context. Every vegan from here to Timbuktu knows there are vitamin deficiencies in their diet of choice because everyone tells them that as an attempt to get them to deny the punch they drank. So they take supplements haphazardly, usually resulting in the dimmer ones taking animal biproducts by mistake (always a good laugh when I used to work at a grocer). They're not healthier because of they're diet, they're just more loaded down with nutrients as a direct result of people warning them about it. If that study was for real, it'd only be showing people who don't take multivitamin supplements.

 

((Skipping a response to these next paragraphs because I don't care about your "where are your citations" rant))

 

 

You know what's more dangerous than lying? Giving cherry-picked evidence and ignoring context to make a point. Vegans are, statistically, the most conscious people when it comes  to their diets. So when you give numbers of vegans versus normal people, you kindly leave out that were comparing nutritionally-minded people to lazy slobs, right? I would like to see some more accurate numbers. I dunno, maybe we can put  dieticians against each other instead of average Joe's against "does this have milk or eggs" nutters. And in the face of all your demands for citations, you have still never addressed the fact that mankind evolved to eat meat. Should we be eating as much meat as we do now? Good lord, no. The meat industry is ruining people at a young age with excess meat consumption. That's something I'm sure we can agree on, but removing meat entirely from your diet is a risky maneuver that people should treat with the utmost care. No, it's not the end of the world if you go vegan. Yes, you can be a healthy vegan if you're devoted enough (as long as your thyroids aren't shit). But eating meat would be better for you in the long run if you learn self control.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

Paleo and Ketone diets that limit carbohydrates have been more successful for weight loss, provide adequate protein intakes and meet mineral and vitamin requirements.
Vegetarian/Vegan diets lack calories and fail to meet mineral, vitamin and protein requirements. There is too much sugar in fruit and eating too much fruit is not good for health. Bread, rice, pasta, potatoes and starch carbohydrates are well known for making people overweight and contributing towards the obesity epidemic.
Vegetarian/Vegan diet is a political decision based on being an environmentalists wanting to save animals by not eating animals. There are no health benefits from following a Vegan/Vegetarian diet due to the lack of protein, deficiencies in minerals/vitamins.



scrapking said:
Aeolus451 said:

You understood what I meant. I wrote that late at night. Anyway, I was talking about the actual definition of omnivore and humans fit it perfectly. The fact that humans require a daily intake of nutrients from both plants and animals proves that humans are omnivores. We're meant to consume both plant and animal daily. 

You're incorrect.  Almost no health agency on the planet suggests any requirement for any amount of animal products for optimal health.  So that's false.  Animals get their nutrients from plants, and then we eat the animals, so it's just a question of whether you go to the source or filter your nutrients through animals.  It's a falsehood that we require animal products for health.  And we lack a lot of biological elements common to omnivores, such as we lack the ability to get rid of cholesterol.  Dogs can.  Wolves can.  We cannot.

That's a big deal.  Researchers started to notice a strong correlation between heart disease and impotence.  And then they realized it wasn't just a correlation, they were the same disease.  In both cases, cholesterol plaque was clogging up the body.  In the case of heart disease it was the arteries leading to the heart.  In the case of impotence, it was cholesterol plaque clogging up the penile artery.  (Yes, emotional factors often come into play with impotence too, but it's frequently an initial 'failure to perform' that kicks off the emotional spiral.)  This was on top of the previously identified correlation between heart and stroke, and a new correlation subsequently observed with several previously unexplained neurological diseases.  It turns out all these diseases were the same disease, cholesterol plaque clogging up different parts of the body.  They have tried to give these diseases to obligate omnivores in controlled conditions and failed, because their bodies are successful at getting rid of the excess cholesterol.

Humans traditionally ate very little cholesterol in our early evolution, as in the cradle of civilization in Africa we largely ate plants.  Our bodies make cholesterol, but rarely in excess so a mechanism to get rid of it wasn't necessary.  Similarly, we once had a gene to produce vitamin C, but we were eating so many plant foods rich in vitamin C that the gene deactivated in humans hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Now vested interests are trying to convince us that eating cholesterol has no bearing on heart disease, and funding science that tries to come to that conclusion.  But they're useful poor scientific method and these studies are rarely submitted to peer review and are being roundly ignored by most public health agencies.  The preponderence of the best and most independent science continues to tell us that eating cholesterol raises cholesterol in the body, and that increases the odds of a raft of chronic diseases.

Pair that all up with the fact that there's no disease that's caused by a lack of meat in the diet, like there is for the lack of sufficient plant foods in the diet (scurvy), and the conclusion seems pretty apparent to me.  Eating a broad spectrum of whole plant foods is optimal for human health.

(Citations for everything I've said before has either been previously provided by me, or is available upon request for any point you'd like more info on.)

You're giving false information on this. Humans require nutrients that only come from meat and animal products. End of story. To live a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, supplements are required if they want to remain "healthy" by the standards of actual doctors. If not they'll eventually have short term or permanent health problems ranging from muscle aches to dementia to different disorders. People should be eating meat and plants daily.  Science recommends that humans take in B12 daily which only comes from meat and animal products.... 



Aeolus451 said:
scrapking said:

You're incorrect.  Almost no health agency on the planet suggests any requirement for any amount of animal products for optimal health.  So that's false.  Animals get their nutrients from plants, and then we eat the animals, so it's just a question of whether you go to the source or filter your nutrients through animals.  It's a falsehood that we require animal products for health.  And we lack a lot of biological elements common to omnivores, such as we lack the ability to get rid of cholesterol.  Dogs can.  Wolves can.  We cannot.

That's a big deal.  Researchers started to notice a strong correlation between heart disease and impotence.  And then they realized it wasn't just a correlation, they were the same disease.  In both cases, cholesterol plaque was clogging up the body.  In the case of heart disease it was the arteries leading to the heart.  In the case of impotence, it was cholesterol plaque clogging up the penile artery.  (Yes, emotional factors often come into play with impotence too, but it's frequently an initial 'failure to perform' that kicks off the emotional spiral.)  This was on top of the previously identified correlation between heart and stroke, and a new correlation subsequently observed with several previously unexplained neurological diseases.  It turns out all these diseases were the same disease, cholesterol plaque clogging up different parts of the body.  They have tried to give these diseases to obligate omnivores in controlled conditions and failed, because their bodies are successful at getting rid of the excess cholesterol.

Humans traditionally ate very little cholesterol in our early evolution, as in the cradle of civilization in Africa we largely ate plants.  Our bodies make cholesterol, but rarely in excess so a mechanism to get rid of it wasn't necessary.  Similarly, we once had a gene to produce vitamin C, but we were eating so many plant foods rich in vitamin C that the gene deactivated in humans hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Now vested interests are trying to convince us that eating cholesterol has no bearing on heart disease, and funding science that tries to come to that conclusion.  But they're useful poor scientific method and these studies are rarely submitted to peer review and are being roundly ignored by most public health agencies.  The preponderence of the best and most independent science continues to tell us that eating cholesterol raises cholesterol in the body, and that increases the odds of a raft of chronic diseases.

Pair that all up with the fact that there's no disease that's caused by a lack of meat in the diet, like there is for the lack of sufficient plant foods in the diet (scurvy), and the conclusion seems pretty apparent to me.  Eating a broad spectrum of whole plant foods is optimal for human health.

(Citations for everything I've said before has either been previously provided by me, or is available upon request for any point you'd like more info on.)

You're giving false information on this. Humans require nutrients that only come from meat and animal products. End of story. To live a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, supplements are required if they want to remain "healthy" by the standards of actual doctors. If not they'll eventually have short term or permanent health problems ranging from muscle aches to dementia to different disorders. People should be eating meat and plants daily.  Science recommends that humans take in B12 daily which only comes from meat and animal products.... 

You are 100% incorrect. You do realise 32% of the worlds population is vegan or vegetarian?? cows milk/dairy products have been linked to cancer in over 1000's of different research. The cancer council is sponsored by the dairy industry, KFC list goes on. They literally send them truck loads of money to keep it hush hush. Do your own research. Clearly you are just followering orders from a doctor.....God bless you.