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Forums - Politics - EU referendum -UK users

 

Leave or remain

Leave 412 53.72%
 
Remain 355 46.28%
 
Total:767
tokilamockingbrd said:
Soundwave said:

All civilized countries are some variation of socialist states, even the USA. A purely capitalist state doesn't exist and if it did it would be a fucking disaster for anyone who isn't loaded. 

yes its a scale. most commonly depicted as a left to right bar bewteen laisse faire capitalism and communism. EU has drifted to far to the communism part of the bar. It is also not good to be totally on the capilatism side of the bar (can lead to too much volatility). Europe just needs to start drifting back to capitalism until they reach a place where the engines of their economies can be ignited. 

Economies of the 20th century are not the same as yesterday?

If I'm running say Apple, why the fuck would I hire any European worker period? Any of them willing to work 12-14 hours a day for less than 10 dollars with no vacation, no health care? Nope. 

And soon we'll have robots/greater automation that work for even cheaper 24/7. 

This is capitalism at its most refined. It's the job of a corporation to maximize every last bit of profit for their shareholders. 



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Well I can't say that this is either the response I wanted nor expected. Was watching the results come in and couldn't really believe it. I still can't! But people have made their voice heard and it will be interesting to see where we go from here.

It's important not to have any knee jerk reactions yet. The markets are all over the place but no doubt it'll settle down before long (in the coming weeks). It's odd being in London though. Didn't know anyone who was voting Leave but, there we go.



 

Here lies the dearly departed Nintendomination Thread.

sc94597 said:
Soundwave said:

All civilized countries are some variation of democratic socialist states, even the USA. A purely capitalist state doesn't exist and if it did it would be a fucking disaster for anyone who isn't loaded. 

Social democratic states. Democratic socialism is the process by which socialism (the social ownership of the means of production) is achieved via democracy. Social democracy is characterized by a mixed economy, but primarily capitalist modes of production (private ownership of the means of production.)

The U.S has a mixed economy, but I wouldn't call it a social democracy. And the U.S is not some bastion of free-markets, private ownership, and capitalism either. Places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada have much more free-market oriented economies.

Canada? lol, Americans think Canada is 1972 Soviet Russia. Free healthcare? Pension plans? Gun control? OMG it's gubbermint tyranny! Australia is much the same as Canada. 

Those countries are certainly not right of center of the US. 



kowenicki said:
Absolute disaster.


Yeah, hope Standard & Poor don't go trough with downgrading UK's Rating to Negative.

And a repeat post:






konnichiwa said:
kowenicki said:
Absolute disaster.


Yeah, hope Standard & Poor don't go trough with downgrading UK's Rating to Negative.

And a repeat post:

Welp, on the plus side for the young 'uns, old people tend to die faster. 

It looks like basically old farts over 65 basically decided the vote. 



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tokilamockingbrd said:
Soundwave said:

All civilized countries are some variation of socialist states, even the USA. A purely capitalist state doesn't exist and if it did it would be a fucking disaster for anyone who isn't loaded. 

yes its a scale. most commonly depicted as a left to right bar bewteen laisse faire capitalism and communism. EU has drifted to far to the communism part of the bar. It is also not good to be totally on the capilatism side of the bar (can lead to too much volatility). Europe just needs to start drifting back to capitalism until they reach a place where the engines of their economies can be ignited. 

That's so american to call communism everything that is slightly leftist. You know not every part of the world has to look exactly like USA. 



All of Europe will be watching Britain's economy the coming years, very interesting times ahead. If the UK's economy does indeed go to shit all anti-EU parties across Europe have a huge problem. On the other side, if the UK does just fine then the UK probably wont be the only country to leave the EU.

konnichiwa said:
kowenicki said:
Absolute disaster.


Yeah, hope Standard & Poor don't go trough with downgrading UK's Rating to Negative.

And a repeat post:

Damn that sucks for the younger people... One could argue that this is quite a flaw within Democracy. The decision to leave the EU will obviously impact the younger people way more than the older people.



Soundwave said:
sc94597 said:

Social democratic states. Democratic socialism is the process by which socialism (the social ownership of the means of production) is achieved via democracy. Social democracy is characterized by a mixed economy, but primarily capitalist modes of production (private ownership of the means of production.)

The U.S has a mixed economy, but I wouldn't call it a social democracy. And the U.S is not some bastion of free-markets, private ownership, and capitalism either. Places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada have much more free-market oriented economies.

Canada? lol, Americans think Canada is 1972 Soviet Russia. Free healthcare? Pension plans? Gun control? OMG it's gubbermint tyranny! Australia is much the same as Canada. 

Those countries are certainly not right of center of the US. 

Americans are misinformed on many things. Also I don't know what you think medicaid/medicare and social security are, but they they are "free healthcare" and "public pension plans." Australia at least has a privatized system at the core of its pension system.

http://www.heritage.org/index/

Australia ranks 5th, Canada ranks 6th, the U.S ranks 11th.

Capitalism and right-wing aren't intrinsically linked (only in the minds of socialists is this true.) For example, Bastiat - a famous proponent of capitalism - sat on the left of the French assembly. The right-left paradigm has more to do with traditionalism/institutional hierarchy vs. equality/radicalism.



Soundwave said:
tokilamockingbrd said:

yes its a scale. most commonly depicted as a left to right bar bewteen laisse faire capitalism and communism. EU has drifted to far to the communism part of the bar. It is also not good to be totally on the capilatism side of the bar (can lead to too much volatility). Europe just needs to start drifting back to capitalism until they reach a place where the engines of their economies can be ignited. 

Economies of the 20th century are not the same as yesterday?

If I'm running say Apple, why the fuck would I hire any European worker period? Any of them willing to work 12-14 hours a day for less than 10 dollars with no vacation, no health care? Nope. 

And soon we'll have robots/greater automation that work for even cheaper 24/7. 

This is capitalism at its most refined. It's the job of a corporation to maximize every last bit of profit for their shareholders. 

the problem is what you are descibing is global capitalism. So you have a country like china which itself is not capitalist internally taking advantage of a WW system. Liberals prefer global capitalism but more socialist domesitcally(which in turn has the effect of socialism WW, rich countries pumping cash into poor ones). Conservatives tend to be reverse.

As a soveriegn nation the US must take its best interest into consideration. Its really is a fine balance. Are you willing to pay more for products to increase jobs? Maybe. Tariffs are what are traditionally used to reduce exposure to markets like china that have the advantage of labor force explotation. In theory if you increase tariffs but decrease domestic taxes equally net tax revenue would remain constant and double the advantage of domestically produced products. 



psn- tokila

add me, the more the merrier.

sc94597 said:
Soundwave said:

Canada? lol, Americans think Canada is 1972 Soviet Russia. Free healthcare? Pension plans? Gun control? OMG it's gubbermint tyranny! Australia is much the same as Canada. 

Those countries are certainly not right of center of the US. 

Americans are misinformed on many things. Also I don't know what you think medicaid/medicare and social security are, but they they are "free healthcare" and "public pension plans." Australia at least has a privatized system at the core of its pension system.

http://www.heritage.org/index/

Australia ranks 5th, Canada ranks 6th, the U.S ranks 11th.

Capitalism and right-wing aren't intrinsically linked (only in the minds of socialists is this true.) For example, Bastiat - a famous proponent of capitalism - sat on the left of the French assembly. The right-left paradigm has more to do with traditionalism/institutional hierarchy vs. equality/radicalism.

Left right is for approach to things, not ideology. You can have a leftist capitalist (an ordoliberalist) or a right wing socialist (a Nazi)...