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Forums - General Discussion - Society lets you go from an asshole to "truther" with one word

Nem said:
What is an heterosexual joke? Don't think i've seen one of those.

I'll usually chuckle at jokes about straight people(i.e cheesy pick up lines and such). gay jokes are funny as well, as long as it isn't a repetitive joke.



 

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12/22/2016- Made a bet with Ganoncrotch that the first 6 months of 2017 will be worse than 2016. A poll will be made to determine the winner. Loser has to take a picture of them imitating their profile picture.

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JWeinCom said:

Well half of those are bad examples anyway... but...

In 28 states you can be fired for being gay without recourse. There are people actively fighting to keep it this way. Gay people can not share benefits with their partners, adopt, and so on.

Women earn significantly less than men and are often perceived as less capable despite being otherwise qualified. Studies have shown biases towards labeling women as "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy" even in cases where they have not been.

A skinny bodytype is definitely preferred. People underweight on BMI are perceived as healthier and more attractive than those within the normal range. Magazines photoshop already thing people to make them abnormally thin, then promise advice on how to reach these unattainable goals.

If you didn't realize when you were typing it, the common denominator in all of these examples is power. The top example is an example of people in power talking about the less powerful group. Quite often these groups have the power and influence to impose, or at least attempt to impose, their will on the less powerful group. So that's the difference here.

I disagree, all of the examples in the OP are bad.

Lemme think. Making critical comments and jokes about a currently and or historically oppressed demographic, by a member of the demographic who used to be, or still is, the oppressor is more likely to be objectively offensive and inappropropriate and assholish than being critical or making jokes about the oppressor demographic. Seems pretty legit to me. I don't really understand why people don't get this. But still making broad negative generalisations about the worth of any demographic group is, generally, entirely inappropriate and is pretty much never absolutely fine. Which is why even if some of the exmaples in the OP are less badly wrong than others, they are all still wrong.

Humour does not exist in a vaccuum and it can be used to further belittle and denigrate an already disadvantaged group, or person.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

binary solo said:
JWeinCom said:

Well half of those are bad examples anyway... but...

In 28 states you can be fired for being gay without recourse. There are people actively fighting to keep it this way. Gay people can not share benefits with their partners, adopt, and so on.

Women earn significantly less than men and are often perceived as less capable despite being otherwise qualified. Studies have shown biases towards labeling women as "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy" even in cases where they have not been.

A skinny bodytype is definitely preferred. People underweight on BMI are perceived as healthier and more attractive than those within the normal range. Magazines photoshop already thing people to make them abnormally thin, then promise advice on how to reach these unattainable goals.

If you didn't realize when you were typing it, the common denominator in all of these examples is power. The top example is an example of people in power talking about the less powerful group. Quite often these groups have the power and influence to impose, or at least attempt to impose, their will on the less powerful group. So that's the difference here.

I disagree, all of the examples in the OP are bad.

Lemme think. Making critical comments and jokes about a currently and or historically oppressed demographic, by a member of the demographic who used to be, or still is, the oppressor is more likely to be objectively offensive and inappropropriate and assholish than being critical or making jokes about the oppressor demographic. Seems pretty legit to me. I don't really understand why people don't get this. But still making broad negative generalisations about the worth of any demographic group is, generally, entirely inappropriate and is pretty much never absolutely fine. Which is why even if some of the exmaples in the OP are less badly wrong than others, they are all still wrong.

Humour does not exist in a vaccuum and it can be used to further belittle and denigrate an already disadvantaged group, or person.

Does that mean that I can make jokes about Asians then? Since I'm not part of the oppressor demographic, as you call them.



Trust me, i have tried my entire life not to be hypocritical and stay by my principles no matter what... It's so damn exhausting, and after a while you can't do anything at all without going against your own morale code.. Sometimes we need to rebel against ourselves to at least have some fun.. We can't simply limit ourselves to a certain standard,
It's simply better to give a shit about the most of it cause it's not worth our energy.. No matter how strong we can be with standing by our morale-codes, we will sooner or later end up breaking one of them because them all are complicated, it's connected to so many threads that when you pass them, you won't know which one you stepped on. The solution is simply empathy and sympathy, that if we all cared for each-other, all this wouldn't have been a problem, because our focus would be less about ourselves and our opinion, we rather pay attention on making this world a better place.. I will probably do something tomorrow that somehow will go against that, cause again, it's a complex matter and there are millions of different path's that leads towards hypocritical moment's, i don't think people actually wish for it, it just happens cause we can't think though everything we do and say at all time.. Also, people are also good to misunderstand things..

I do wish that the examples you gave, weren't true cause they are some-what pretty harmful judgmental things to do.



 

PSN: Opticstrike90
Steam: opticstrike90

binary solo said:
JWeinCom said:

Well half of those are bad examples anyway... but...

In 28 states you can be fired for being gay without recourse. There are people actively fighting to keep it this way. Gay people can not share benefits with their partners, adopt, and so on.

Women earn significantly less than men and are often perceived as less capable despite being otherwise qualified. Studies have shown biases towards labeling women as "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy" even in cases where they have not been.

A skinny bodytype is definitely preferred. People underweight on BMI are perceived as healthier and more attractive than those within the normal range. Magazines photoshop already thing people to make them abnormally thin, then promise advice on how to reach these unattainable goals.

If you didn't realize when you were typing it, the common denominator in all of these examples is power. The top example is an example of people in power talking about the less powerful group. Quite often these groups have the power and influence to impose, or at least attempt to impose, their will on the less powerful group. So that's the difference here.

I disagree, all of the examples in the OP are bad.

Lemme think. Making critical comments and jokes about a currently and or historically oppressed demographic, by a member of the demographic who used to be, or still is, the oppressor is more likely to be objectively offensive and inappropropriate and assholish than being critical or making jokes about the oppressor demographic. Seems pretty legit to me. I don't really understand why people don't get this. But still making broad negative generalisations about the worth of any demographic group is, generally, entirely inappropriate and is pretty much never absolutely fine. Which is why even if some of the exmaples in the OP are less badly wrong than others, they are all still wrong.

Humour does not exist in a vaccuum and it can be used to further belittle and denigrate an already disadvantaged group, or person.

Humour is the last thing I care about. As I said, it's when we reach serious conversations does this double standard effect truly take place.


Look at the cases of Muslims and black people. Face it, we have an issue with some black people and some Muslims. however, people just say "it's not all of them" and drop the issue. However, if it were with a different group, people will explode and go nuts.

 

Your last point is also what I'm trying to say. I don't like being mean to anyone at all. I'd rather be respectful than rude to people for no reason.



 

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12/22/2016- Made a bet with Ganoncrotch that the first 6 months of 2017 will be worse than 2016. A poll will be made to determine the winner. Loser has to take a picture of them imitating their profile picture.

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pokoko said:
Without commenting on which one is right or wrong (or neither) there is one example that always makes me chuckle.

"He was at that seedy bar downtown and got stabbed. He really needs to stop hanging out with those people." -- Common sense.

"She was at that seedy bar downtown and got raped. She really needs to stop hanging out with those people." -- Victim blaming.

What? Y'know women do generally avoid places where they think there's a higher than normal danger of being raped, so they are practicing common sense. But if course if you're expecting them to avoid all places where there is a non-zero chance of being raped then they will need to pretty much live in solitary confinement.

What most ignorant people say to rape victims is, "well you shouldn't have worn a skimpy dress", which is a total BS statement.

Most people who get stabbed in a bar aren't getting stabbed at random, there's usually some aggro between the stabber and the stabbee (both are being antagonistic) before the situation escalates into a stabbing.

Now if your second sentence was "She was at that seedy bar downtown was not wearing underware, sat on the bar spread her legs and said, hey boys who wants some of this, and got raped. She really needs to stop doing that." Then you might have something of a point.

Basically what your exampe boils down to is this statement "you shouldn't antagonise the one with the knife." exactly equals in common sense the statement "you shouldn't flirt with the one with a penis." Now that is plain nonsense.

And then of course there's the general attitude in society that violence, even killing, is an acceptable and reasonable response in some situations. So having a violent confrontation is often accepted as fitting within the norms of human social interaction. As far as I know in a normal society there is never a situation where forced, non-consensual sex is an acceptable and reasonable course of action that fits within the norms of social interaction. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

It's the great hypocrisy of liberalism. They will scorn you for stereotyping then stereotype Republicans. For instance, a crazy Muslim person blows up an airport. Their first response is to not stereotype and that this is such a small fraction. Meanwhile a crazy Republican blows up an abortion clinic. Their first response is to say that this represents conservatism as a whole and all the others are just more tame about it and like this somehow.



I am Iron Man

Baryonyx said:
Trust me, i have tried my entire life not to be hypocritical and stay by my principles no matter what... It's so damn exhausting, and after a while you can't do anything at all without going against your own morale code.. Sometimes we need to rebel against ourselves to at least have some fun.. We can't simply limit ourselves to a certain standard,
It's simply better to give a shit about the most of it cause it's not worth our energy.. No matter how strong we can be with standing by our morale-codes, we will sooner or later end up breaking one of them because them all are complicated, it's connected to so many threads that when you pass them, you won't know which one you stepped on. The solution is simply empathy and sympathy, that if we all cared for each-other, all this wouldn't have been a problem, because our focus would be less about ourselves and our opinion, we rather pay attention on making this world a better place.. I will probably do something tomorrow that somehow will go against that, cause again, it's a complex matter and there are millions of different path's that leads towards hypocritical moment's, i don't think people actually wish for it, it just happens cause we can't think though everything we do and say at all time.. Also, people are also good to misunderstand things..

I do wish that the examples you gave, weren't true cause they are some-what pretty harmful judgmental things to do.

You do give a good point.

 

Also, the points I give are ones I see quite often. Goes to show how divided we are nowadays



 

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12/22/2016- Made a bet with Ganoncrotch that the first 6 months of 2017 will be worse than 2016. A poll will be made to determine the winner. Loser has to take a picture of them imitating their profile picture.

I don't care about the examples you give. What bothers me is how people can't take jokes anymore. We need to stop acting as if jokes constitute opinions or ideologies. Comedy is satire. Stereotypes are used in satire. And it's all just humor. Not real opinions.



binary solo said:
pokoko said:
Without commenting on which one is right or wrong (or neither) there is one example that always makes me chuckle.

"He was at that seedy bar downtown and got stabbed. He really needs to stop hanging out with those people." -- Common sense.

"She was at that seedy bar downtown and got raped. She really needs to stop hanging out with those people." -- Victim blaming.

What? Y'know women do generally avoid places where they think there's a higher than normal danger of being raped, so they are practicing common sense. But if course if you're expecting them to avoid all places where there is a non-zero chance of being raped then they will need to pretty much live in solitary confinement.

What most ignorant people say to rape victims is, "well you shouldn't have worn a skimpy dress", which is a total BS statement.

Most people who get stabbed in a bar aren't getting stabbed at random, there's usually some aggro between the stabber and the stabbee (both are being antagonistic) before the situation escalates into a stabbing.

Now if your second sentence was "She was at that seedy bar downtown was not wearing underware, sat on the bar spread her legs and said, hey boys who wants some of this, and got raped. She really needs to stop doing that." Then you might have something of a point.

Basically what your exampe boils down to is this statement "you shouldn't antagonise the one with the knife." exactly equals in common sense the statement "you shouldn't flirt with the one with a penis." Now that is plain nonsense.

And then of course there's the general attitude in society that violence, even killing, is an acceptable and reasonable response in some situations. So having a violent confrontation is often accepted as fitting within the norms of human social interaction. As far as I know in a normal society there is never a situation where forced, non-consensual sex is an acceptable and reasonable course of action that fits within the norms of social interaction. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

What?  Your victim blaming sickens me.  God, what the hell, dude?  Guy gets stabbed and it's his own fault?  Serves him right for wearing that hoodie, huh?  I bet he had some tattoos, that's the same as just asking for it.

Seriously, thank you for coming along and providing a real world example of people going out of their way to rationalize hypothetical situations two completely different ways, even to the point of making up their own details so that one is more negative and one is more positive.  You've twisted it until the guy deserved to be stabbed just because you wanted to.

And, wow, "you shouldn't antagonise the one with the knife"?  Because stabbings are never done when someone's back is turned?  

Here, though, I'll give you the conclusion of the example: the guy got stabbed because he was trying to stop the girl from being raped.  Still his own fault for messing with a person who had a concealed knife?  Still want to apply two different sets of logic?