By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming - Is the X86 architecture good?

the-pi-guy said:
Ruler said:

Its defeniatley better than PowerPC which we all saw how fast the 7th consoles broke down on us (RRoD etc) and the dissapointing Wii U Graphics performance over PS4.
But Emotion Engine for example had a lot of potantial if Sony and Toshiba made it alone, we all saw how easy the PS2 could compete dispite having no real GPU inside. When the PS2 was launched it was ahead of PC gaming in terms of visuals.

RRoD quite literally had nothing to do with the PowerPC.  RRoD basically went away after this:

"There was a theory," Moore remembered. "We had changed our solder, which is the way you put the GPU and the fans, to lead-free. Todd, who is the most sincere human being, was going crazy trying to figure it out."

Wii U's poor performance had more to do with poor parts, than the actual architecture.  

 

This is the GPU in the PS2, the "Graphics Synthesizer"

Its not really a GPU but a video chip, defeniatley far far behind the Gamecube and Xboxes GPUs who were used in the PC space as well. Even the Dreamcast GPU was stronger.

The overheating issues are also blamed dueto the CPU which made most of the heat. CPUs are in general reliable and cant break that easily, but they can cause a lot of heat dueto bad design which can result into defect motherboards or GPUs



Around the Network

The question and the post don't match each other at all. I'm not even nearly qualified enough to tell whether x86 is better than the alternatives, but I know for sure that development costs have been rising for a long time (probably since the beginning). The reason is simply more powerful hardware, which enables more advanced games, which in turn require more people to work on them, which costs a lot of money. Whether x86 was a better choice than say, PowerPC, is another question, but familiarity is definitely a factor that should reduce the costs. Now that there's only one architecture to master instead of two (last gen we had x86 for PC, PowerPC for consoles), the situation should be better unless x86 is vastly inferior, which I strongly doubt it is.

So, to answer the question, at worst x86 is probably not much worse than PowerPC, but at best it could be a lot better. Reality is probably somewhere between those two ends.



The current consoles mainly suffer from choosing such poor x86 cpu's, not the fact that they went over to x86. So my hope is that for Nintendo if they choose ARM or x86, that they make a very capable combination of cpu and gpu that allows developers to create games with the least amount of bottle necks as possible. 



baloofarsan said:
  • 1. ease of software development
  • 2. easier to port from PC to consoles (and vice versa)
  • 3. shorter and cheaper development
  • 4. more optimized code
  • 5. using scalable game engines like UE4

 

  • 6. most PS4/XB1 games still cost $60
  • 7. many games have been rushed and/or delayed (i.e. planning was not easy despite the well known X86 architecture)
  • 8. many games are not optimized (resolution, framerate etc) despite scalability of game engines.
  • 9. games are migrating from consoles to PC but not many in the other direction.
  • 10. higher development costs resulting in absurd sales demands.
  • 11. developers closing down or migrating to mobile 

Number #1 did happen. It just also happened to be the case that games became more complex as well. #2 has happened, the performance issues of current gen PC ports are nowhere near as bad as the 7th generation pc ports. 3. Also happened with respect to the predicted development times. 4. Didn't happen, but also wasn't predicted. #5 is probably the biggest effect. 

Before I address 6-11, I'd like to say that the PS3 is a perfect example of why X86 as a standard architecture was needed. The PS3 was very gimped by its unique and specialized architecture. 

#6, this is for market reasons. The video game market is not a perfectly competitive market, so there is no reason why P(price) = MC(marginal cost), video game producers have market power and can control prices. Not to mention inflation, $60 in 2006 is about $70.57 in today's money. 

#7, the same was true for the 7th generation. 

#8, It seems to me that optimization of the consoles occured much sooner in this generation than it did in the 7th generation. I don't see there being huge improvements in graphics left for the PS4/XBONE, while the PS360 had some huge improvements in their last few years. The consoles are just weak. 

#9 Mostly because there are fewer games to migrate from PC to consoles than there had been in the past. Most games are multiplatform while at the start of the 7th generation PC had many more exclusives. 

#10. There is no way around this. Development costs are ALWAYS going to increase until we have a huge breakthrough in programming design or hardware power. 

#11. Seems to be mostly a Japanese phenomena, and this is an effect of they not releasing games in the 7th generation. Otherwise, the market is pretty healthy. 



I think than rather than the architecture and/or technical/artistic problems developers face we have to take in consideration that developement times for big name studios are bat shit crazy even with the best tools and employees. This makes them cut corners in order to get to the deadline because now the market expect a super production game every year or so.



Around the Network

Well it is morning in my part of the world. The OP that yesterday late night to me seemed to be a rather neutral and objective observation, is in reality not very neutral or objective!
I thank everyone that could see trough the language and respond to the question I tried to formulate.



I would say that at least one of the benefits is that there is not much discussion about bad ports od 3rd party games. In PS3/X360 era, the quality of some ports were very poor.

Going to X86 architecture did not help at all in relation to mobile gaming, which is mostly on ARM arhitecture. Mobile device volumes are staggering which makes it attractive for developers. Still today the console games are far bigger and complex than mobile games despite the fact that the raw computing power of mobile devices is closing up on consoles.



konkari said:
I would say that at least one of the benefits is that there is not much discussion about bad ports od 3rd party games. In PS3/X360 era, the quality of some ports were very poor.

Going to X86 architecture did not help at all in relation to mobile gaming, which is mostly on ARM arhitecture. Mobile device volumes are staggering which makes it attractive for developers. Still today the console games are far bigger and complex than mobile games despite the fact that the raw computing power of mobile devices is closing up on consoles.

PC gamers might disagree with there not being crappy ports. given we have a unified architecture between PC and Xbox/PS one might wonder why there have been high profile crappy PC ports.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

baloofarsan said:
  • most PS4/XB1 games still cost $60
  • many games have been rushed and/or delayed (i.e. planning was not easy despite the well known X86 architecture)
  • many games are not optimized (resolution, framerate etc) despite scalability of game engines.
  • games are migrating from consoles to PC but not many in the other direction.
  • higher development costs resulting in absurd sales demands.
  • developers closing down or migrating to mobile

Graphics and optimization are huge part of the budget. Which is why low budget titles don't compare to the average $60 game. Games have become cheaper when you consider inflation. They have stayed $60 in spite of $60 being worth less.

That has more to do with programing and games have become more complex. Expecations from say 10 years ago are very different today.

A lot of games are pretty well optimized given the hardware. Buying a PC with equal specs is more expensive. We now have significantly better graphics and performance on 8th gen consoles, so maybe you're missing the obvious.

More games are coming to PC because its becoming a more viable market. That has a lot to do with developing countries as well. Its worth noting popular PC genres like MMOs and MOBAs are becoming more relevant on consoles.

Big budget games existed in previous gens as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop

Mobile games are generally low budget and less risky, but that certainly isn't where all the money is at. Which is why there is still a huge focus on console gaming. That's just a different market and generally a different audience.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

snyps said:

I don't believe Nintendo fans would gain or lose anything by Nintendo switching or staying with the cpu architecture. X86 is cheaper to manufacture right now because of the laptop market.

 

the op is correct in his assessment. There's no noticeable effect for consumers. Good press releases hyped it up really well.  X86 is obviously the top choice right now because the hw is cheaper and it's the platform of pc. That's as far as it goes. 

No. x86 isn't cheaper to manufacture.
Typically x86 die-sizes are massive compared to say... ARM or MIPS, heck probably even PowerPC (I haven't checked, can't be bothered either).
Die sizes have a direct relationship to production costs as you can fit less chips on a wafer and you get increasing amounts of failed chips due to yields.

Older fabrication nodes can also be cheaper than newer fabrication nodes as well due to maturity and the insane costs to retool fabs to something newer, Nintendo's "old" 45nm PowerPC chip is probably cheaper to produce than Jaguar... Up to a point. If you intend to make a 5~ Billion chip, then 45nm would be more expensive than 28nm.

However x86 reached a point of "good enough" due to the focus of smaller more power efficient chips for Small form factor PC's (Think: NUC, Tablets, Netbooks etc') that was never available in any other prior console generation and those smaller chips, whilst still more expensive than ARM, was offset by combining the GPU into the same silicon.

WolfpackN64 said:
fatslob-:O said:

Why ? x86 itself is close to RISC too ... 

Source ? 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2016/03/15/ibms-q4-power-numbers-portend-to-a-potential-comeback-story/#2243ea054700

Given, it's nothing spectacular, but PPC is still in the game.

And I'd rather see a proper RISC architecture than a CISC CPU wanting to be RISC. It's like a hybrid kernel, it wants to be a microkernel but can't get free of the monolithic kernel's roots.

Internally AMD and Intel x86 is RISC, externally they are CISC.

WolfpackN64 said:

Those are a bunch of half truths. The Xbox 360 broke because of an GPU heating issue, not the CPU, the PS3 never had CPU issues. The PS2's emotion engine was basically an SoC with a MIPS CPU. The Wii U uses an old PPC core (about 4 generations behind current POWER cores), has an older GPU and a small amount of RAM

The CPU heat added to the GPU heat, it compounded to the issue.
The PS3 CPU had issues related not to heat, but that's another discussion. :P

Ck1x said:

The current consoles mainly suffer from choosing such poor x86 cpu's, not the fact that they went over to x86. So my hope is that for Nintendo if they choose ARM or x86, that they make a very capable combination of cpu and gpu that allows developers to create games with the least amount of bottle necks as possible. 

Bang on.
AMD's CPU's are woefully inadequate, have been for a few years now. (Anyone who buys AMD in 2016 is nuts in my opinion.)
AMD's fastest are barely capable of beating Intel's low/mid-range parts, take AMD's slowest of the slowest (Console CPU's) and you come to the conclusion that CPU wise, these console are laughable.

It's not x86's fault, but rather AMD, they stagnated and fell behind, hopefully they can make up for lost ground with Zen.

Still. With that said... An 8 Core Jaguar is still superior to that of Cell or Xenon, it's more efficient, it's faster and easier to develop for, would have been nice though if console manufacturers took CPU performance seriously for once though, we would have better physics (Without needing to rely on the cloud), A.I. etc'.

baloofarsan said:
  • 1. ease of software development
  • 2. easier to port from PC to consoles (and vice versa)
  • 3. shorter and cheaper development
  • 4. more optimized code
  • 5. using scalable game engines like UE4

 

  • 6. most PS4/XB1 games still cost $60
  • 7. many games have been rushed and/or delayed (i.e. planning was not easy despite the well known X86 architecture)
  • 8. many games are not optimized (resolution, framerate etc) despite scalability of game engines.
  • 9. games are migrating from consoles to PC but not many in the other direction.
  • 10. higher development costs resulting in absurd sales demands.
  • 11. developers closing down or migrating to mobile 

1) Development is easier, faster as less work can be done on inferior dev kits and instead be done on high-end PC workstations.

6) Cost is likely never to come down, only increase, Publishers want to make their Billions on re-released games every year.

7) Allot of that is because of deadlines/financial issues, rather than x86, lots of internal politics at Studio's/Publishers.

8) They are optimized... But if you had noticed... This generation has allot less "baked details". (I.E. Shadows/Lighting details in the textures) instead it's all dynamic, consoles caught up to PC on tech, this costs allot of resources to pull off and is often seen as a loss of optimization, when really it isn't, more is certainly happening on screen.

9) I wouldn't say games are migrating anywhere.

10) The easiest way to increase your sales is by increasing your Audience so you can afford higher development costs. - The PC has the largest gaming Audience and games have longer legs in terms of sales, so it makes financial sense.

11) There is billions to be made in Mobile, developers only have finite resources, if they can't compete in the console space, then they should refocus on where they can make money, they are business's, blame the consumers for not supporting them. :P

konkari said:

Going to X86 architecture did not help at all in relation to mobile gaming, which is mostly on ARM arhitecture. Mobile device volumes are staggering which makes it attractive for developers. Still today the console games are far bigger and complex than mobile games despite the fact that the raw computing power of mobile devices is closing up on consoles.

The thing with mobile is that App's and Games aren't really built for the particular hardware nuances, they are built for the API's/Software stacks, which is also part of the reason why x86 Android tablets/Phones can run the majority of the Android software ecosystem. (With the help of Binary translation too.)

Mobile is quickly evolving, but they are still nowhere near the consoles.
It's not like they can have a 250~ watt GPU backed with a few Gigabytes of HBM/XGDDR5 Ram to fuel their 1080P-4k resolutions in games, it will take them a good 5-10 years for them to get anywhere near the PS4.
Not only that... But high-end devices don't typically sell in great quantities, the majority of Android devices would still be slower than last generation consoles, which most developers target their games and software at.

baloofarsan said:
Would the situation be even worse if PPC architecture had continued in PS4/XB1?
With the newest rumored leak from Reddit* there is much hope (from commentators) that Nintendo at last also will use X86.  Will a move to X86 solve any of Nintendos problems?  

It would solve allot of Nintendo's problems, especially with 3rd party support, developers are less likely to ignore it if their hardware is compatible with the other 3 platforms (PC, Xbox One, Playstation 4) on a technical level.

Nintendo has a bit of an uphill battle though, for one... They need to stop attacking Youtubers, who ironically help advertise their games and consoles.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite