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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Guardian: 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Generation Y’s income

The biggest difference I see is our parents talk about how they started with nothing and my peers talk about how they are working to get to nothing and out of debt. Majority of people my age seem to be putting off home buying and have children (if they have them at all). To many their 20s are a sort of lost time financially where student debt is everything an they have to find some entry level position as get desperate after period of unemployment after graduation.

For many the worst part is the indignity of having to move back home despite having a degree and full time career because $500-700/month student loan payments make meeting ends meet so challenging. They are told how entitled they are and they are failures.

All that said, the young bring it on ourselves. We don't vote and therefore no one cares about us. The old do so social security and medicare are secure for them.



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BraLoD said:
ReimTime said:

Rupees? Pounds? Euros? Yen? Rocks? Idk what Brazilian money is called lol

Wasn't me it was an Itachi copypasta #DealWithIt

You didn't even tried Gold, do you even RPG bro?

Anyway, it's called Real, which means Royal in English.

Yet it's worth nothing now, royal my ass, more like peasant xP

I even forgot to suggest Gil! I'm a failure!

Augen said:
The biggest difference I see is our parents talk about how they started with nothing and my peers talk about how they are working to get to nothing and out of debt. Majority of people my age seem to be putting off home buying and have children (if they have them at all). To many their 20s are a sort of lost time financially where student debt is everything an they have to find some entry level position as get desperate after period of unemployment after graduation.

For many the worst part is the indignity of having to move back home despite having a degree and full time career because $500-700/month student loan payments make meeting ends meet so challenging. They are told how entitled they are and they are failures.

All that said, the young bring it on ourselves. We don't vote and therefore no one cares about us. The old do so social security and medicare are secure for them.

You make a good point about youth voting turnout, although the number was promising this past election. But realistically, how can we youth shoulder the burden of our agin population? What kind of economic reform would help us out a little?

I think tuition and all other school-related fees could most certtainly take a cut. As a student I do get a tax cut on my return that carries over every year, (and will go towards student loans at the end of my schooling) but it is still inadequate funding for staying out of debt. Unless you get lucky and have your parents pay for your schooling, or work hard to get enough money to live comfortably you're pretty much guaranteed to go into debt (and still might with a good job). The post-secondary schooling system in North America is 3rd world compared to Scandinavia.



#1 Amb-ass-ador

ReimTime said:

You make a good point about youth voting turnout, although the number was promising this past election. But realistically, how can we youth shoulder the burden of our agin population? What kind of economic reform would help us out a little?

I think tuition and all other school-related fees could most certtainly take a cut. As a student I do get a tax cut on my return that carries over every year, (and will go towards student loans at the end of my schooling) but it is still inadequate funding for staying out of debt. Unless you get lucky and have your parents pay for your schooling, or work hard to get enough money to live comfortably you're pretty much guaranteed to go into debt (and still might with a good job). The post-secondary schooling system in North America is 3rd world compared to Scandinavia.

This generation of 18-35 year olds is pretty much screwed to be honest.  Best we can hope for is kids now have different realities when they get to this stage of their lives.  I don't think subsidies will do anything, costs would just adjust, so only wholesale tax funded public college would change the dynamic.



Augen said:
ReimTime said:

You make a good point about youth voting turnout, although the number was promising this past election. But realistically, how can we youth shoulder the burden of our agin population? What kind of economic reform would help us out a little?

I think tuition and all other school-related fees could most certtainly take a cut. As a student I do get a tax cut on my return that carries over every year, (and will go towards student loans at the end of my schooling) but it is still inadequate funding for staying out of debt. Unless you get lucky and have your parents pay for your schooling, or work hard to get enough money to live comfortably you're pretty much guaranteed to go into debt (and still might with a good job). The post-secondary schooling system in North America is 3rd world compared to Scandinavia.

This generation of 18-35 year olds is pretty much screwed to be honest.  Best we can hope for is kids now have different realities when they get to this stage of their lives.  I don't think subsidies will do anything, costs would just adjust, so only wholesale tax funded public college would change the dynamic.

Public College - now there is an idea!

It always annoys me how Administrators and other higher ups - when making budget cuts - seem to turn their attention to cutting school funding or nickeling and diming through parking passes etc instead of taking a pay cut.



#1 Amb-ass-ador

sc94597 said:
WolfpackN64 said:
The whole "generations" thing is BS anyway. What do you expect in a capitalist society? It's like Windows, everything seems to run just fin untill you get BSOD' or get a fatal series of system crashes. And it will happen again and again and again...

And the alternative? Price controls? Hyperinflation? Restricted markets? Loose property rights? Shortages? Protectionism? Cuba? Zimbabwe? Venezuela? 

I can see why people argue for social democracy, even though I don't think it can last. At least social democracy works in the short-term. But actual socialism? Right... 

There is no utopia. Freedom is the best we can have, even with its faults. The world today is better than the world 100 years ago, and for damn sure a paradise compared to the world 200 + years ago. 

@OP I think we are just seeing short-term effects of developing countries competing with established industrial ones. In the long-term things will stabilize. Honestly, more people around the world having wealth is a good thing, and it is through free and open markets that this happens. So while life might be slightly harder for current generations (for a variety of reasons) living standards in Asia and South America are improving. That is a success in my opinion. I don't discriminate according to silly national borders. Another factor is urbanization in first-world countries. For example, in the United States more people lived in rural areas in the 70's than they do today. This meant housing prices were cheaper and getting a house easier. I would assume the same is true for other first-world countires. 

 

Africa(and Middle East) have extremely corrupt governments. It's going to be hard for them to attempt to develop, have a fair law system, and become a modern country. I'd say it is basically impossible



 

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12/22/2016- Made a bet with Ganoncrotch that the first 6 months of 2017 will be worse than 2016. A poll will be made to determine the winner. Loser has to take a picture of them imitating their profile picture.

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hershel_layton said:
sc94597 said:

And the alternative? Price controls? Hyperinflation? Restricted markets? Loose property rights? Shortages? Protectionism? Cuba? Zimbabwe? Venezuela? 

I can see why people argue for social democracy, even though I don't think it can last. At least social democracy works in the short-term. But actual socialism? Right... 

There is no utopia. Freedom is the best we can have, even with its faults. The world today is better than the world 100 years ago, and for damn sure a paradise compared to the world 200 + years ago. 

@OP I think we are just seeing short-term effects of developing countries competing with established industrial ones. In the long-term things will stabilize. Honestly, more people around the world having wealth is a good thing, and it is through free and open markets that this happens. So while life might be slightly harder for current generations (for a variety of reasons) living standards in Asia and South America are improving. That is a success in my opinion. I don't discriminate according to silly national borders. Another factor is urbanization in first-world countries. For example, in the United States more people lived in rural areas in the 70's than they do today. This meant housing prices were cheaper and getting a house easier. I would assume the same is true for other first-world countires. 

 

Africa(and Middle East) have extremely corrupt governments. It's going to be hard for them to attempt to develop, have a fair law system, and become a modern country. I'd say it is basically impossible

Never mentioned Africa(and the Middle East) for that reason. They still have decades of stability issues to get resolved first. That is a problem for the 22nd century. But for now Asia and Latin America are stabilizing and developing quite well. 



I must have been one of the lucky ones I guess..

My biggest issue is I have to pay taxes to support able body people who actively chose not to work lol.



 

 

sc94597 said:
WolfpackN64 said:
The whole "generations" thing is BS anyway. What do you expect in a capitalist society? It's like Windows, everything seems to run just fin untill you get BSOD' or get a fatal series of system crashes. And it will happen again and again and again...

And the alternative? Price controls? Hyperinflation? Restricted markets? Loose property rights? Shortages? Protectionism? Cuba? Zimbabwe? Venezuela? 

I can see why people argue for social democracy, even though I don't think it can last. At least social democracy works in the short-term. But actual socialism? Right... 

There is no utopia. Freedom is the best we can have, even with its faults. The world today is better than the world 100 years ago, and for damn sure a paradise compared to the world 200 + years ago. 

@OP I think we are just seeing short-term effects of developing countries competing with established industrial ones. In the long-term things will stabilize. Honestly, more people around the world having wealth is a good thing, and it is through free and open markets that this happens. So while life might be slightly harder for current generations (for a variety of reasons) living standards in Asia and South America are improving. That is a success in my opinion. I don't discriminate according to silly national borders. Another factor is urbanization in first-world countries. For example, in the United States more people lived in rural areas in the 70's than they do today. This meant housing prices were cheaper and getting a house easier. I would assume the same is true for other first-world countires. 

That may well be part of it, but I don't see that as the only cause and I don't think the effect is going to be short-term. A lot of jobs that didn't require a degrees or a raft of qualifications have been replaced by automation. Capitalism pushes everything to become more efficient and that means replacing humans with reliable machinary. This trend looks to increase as we get things like self-driving cars that could have a massive impact on jobs in a number of sectors. Or the self-checkout systems in supermarkets reducing the need for staff to work the tills. Even in science research a robot/computer has been built that runs experiments, analyses the results and designs the next set of experiments based on those results. There are simply less basic jobs to go round and semi-skilled jobs are likely to be replaced too. The same is going to happen in developing countries in a relatively short space of time given the speed of communication in modern day society.

The result is younger people need to get high value degrees to get even low-level jobs. More people getting degrees devalues the degree meaning a post-grad qualifiction becomes important resulting in more debt (and time) before getting to the lowest rung of the career ladder. All this whilst the cost of living is disproportionately high compared to salaries. Basically, we're getting to a point where there won't be enough jobs to go round. Generation Y is the most educated, knowledgable and qualified generation in the history of human civilization, but they're struggling to thrive and pay for the generation that preceded them.  

You asked for alternatives to capitalism so I'd recommend giving 'Post-capitalism: a guide to our future' by Paul Mason a read. I don't agree with everything in it but it has some interesting ideas that could be worth exploring. 



Scoobes said:

That may well be part of it, but I don't see that as the only cause and I don't think the effect is going to be short-term. A lot of jobs that didn't require a degrees or a raft of qualifications have been replaced by automation. Capitalism pushes everything to become more efficient and that means replacing humans with reliable machinary. This trend looks to increase as we get things like self-driving cars that could have a massive impact on jobs in a number of sectors. Or the self-checkout systems in supermarkets reducing the need for staff to work the tills. Even in science research a robot/computer has been built that runs experiments, analyses the results and designs the next set of experiments based on those results. There are simply less basic jobs to go round and semi-skilled jobs are likely to be replaced too. The same is going to happen in developing countries in a relatively short space of time given the speed of communication in modern day society.

The result is younger people need to get high value degrees to get even low-level jobs. More people getting degrees devalues the degree meaning a post-grad qualifiction becomes important resulting in more debt (and time) before getting to the lowest rung of the career ladder. All this whilst the cost of living is disproportionately high compared to salaries. Basically, we're getting to a point where there won't be enough jobs to go round. Generation Y is the most educated, knowledgable and qualified generation in the history of human civilization, but they're struggling to thrive and pay for the generation that preceded them.  

You asked for alternatives to capitalism so I'd recommend giving 'Post-capitalism: a guide to our future' by Paul Mason a read. I don't agree with everything in it but it has some interesting ideas that could be worth exploring. 

Automation has been a problem since the industrial revolution, and never was it the death of the human workforce. In fact, the opposite has been true. There were always newer, better, and more specialized jobs created by the economic growth that was induced by capital creation/accumulation. At the end of the 18th century an overwhelming majority of Americans worked on farms. At the end of 19th century most people worked in manufacturing and resource gathering positions. That lasted until the end of the 20th century. Today most Americans work in the service economy. And I can see the entertainment and tourism economies growing as well as more people in the world have disposable income. Until we get artificial intelligence (which will likely occur/cause a post-scarcity society for living goods) trained human labor will be valuable and there will always be plenty of things we need humans to do.

The problem with college graduates getting low positions after graduating isn't necessarily that the level of degree is devalued, but rather the degree choices are distorted (not entirely decided by market factors.) There is plenty of scarcity in STEM fields. I know plenty of people for example, with no formal degree in software engineering/IT getting positions just because they teach themselves how to program/troubleshoot and there is a shortage in software development/networking. The same holds true for engineering and many areas of scientific research, finance, the health industry, etc. The problem is that people insist on getting a psychology, liberal arts, sociology, english, history, or any other oversaturated (but easy) degree and then find that they aren't very different from a few million other people applying for the same, limited, positions. Why do they do this? Because they aren't realizing the risks/costs  vs. rewards until after they graduate. Student loans allow them to do that. That is why I view it as a short term problem. Eventually people are going to realize that we have a shortage in the STEM fields and regardless of how hard it is for them to do it, they'll get their foot in the door. As technology develops so will the number of jobs. As science develops so will the number of specialities and jobs. So on and so on. The car wasn't the end of the stable keeper, and I really don't see the current technology boom as the end of the current labor force. 



Augen said:
ReimTime said:

You make a good point about youth voting turnout, although the number was promising this past election. But realistically, how can we youth shoulder the burden of our agin population? What kind of economic reform would help us out a little?

I think tuition and all other school-related fees could most certtainly take a cut. As a student I do get a tax cut on my return that carries over every year, (and will go towards student loans at the end of my schooling) but it is still inadequate funding for staying out of debt. Unless you get lucky and have your parents pay for your schooling, or work hard to get enough money to live comfortably you're pretty much guaranteed to go into debt (and still might with a good job). The post-secondary schooling system in North America is 3rd world compared to Scandinavia.

This generation of 18-35 year olds is pretty much screwed to be honest.  Best we can hope for is kids now have different realities when they get to this stage of their lives.  I don't think subsidies will do anything, costs would just adjust, so only wholesale tax funded public college would change the dynamic.

The 18-35 are fine. If they chose to do more than liberal arts/social sciences degrees and spend their time on social media.