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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Is NX even necessary?

TheGoldenBoy said:

I don't see any excuses I made. Sony failed in the handheld market and they're most likely not going to try again. They've moved on from that market, which is why people don't bring it up often because it's irrelevant to their future at this point. Can you say the same for Nintendo? That because of the Wii U's commercial failure, they're going to stop creating home consoles. No, you can't; which is the reason why the Wii U's failure is held up higher in regards to Nintendo. And what new entrant caused the PS3 to sell less than the PS2? Last I checked Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony were all in the 6th and 7th gens. The main reason the PS3 did poorly was because Sony arrogance and they botched the launch. Also, the PS2 being the cheapest DVD player on the market also contributed a lot to its success.

Secondly, where the fuck did I say they need to replicate the successs of the DS to be viable? Nintendo just needs to sell enough consoles to make a profit while at the same time remain relevant in the mainstream market.

Also, excuse my "saltiness" while I play my Wii U and 3DS.

Will Ninty next home console be nothing but another iteration of the handheld? So no you cant say Ninty hasnt given up on the home console business, I love the excuse though keep them coming. Wiius failure is held up higher because people are desperate to shit on anything Ninty related. Thats why I mentioned ps3s failure and ps4 not going anywhere near ps2, because all of that was overlooked while nintys handheld business does the same and gets shitted on for it. You cant even prove Vita really is it for Sony, yet you had no problem pushing it. Because yet again you want to just sweep Sonys issues under the rug. All i see from Ninty these days is take as many franchises that were once home console exclusive over to 3DS as quickly as possible. Sony supports Vita the best way they can, 3rd party support. Its still selling enough to beat Wiiu, some would even argue Vita as better support. So tell me why are you so quick to believe sony is leaving but Ninty isnt? I know, because the agenda of Wiiu being held up higher needs to be supported.



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Nintyfan90 said:
TheGoldenBoy said:

I don't see any excuses I made. Sony failed in the handheld market and they're most likely not going to try again. They've moved on from that market, which is why people don't bring it up often because it's irrelevant to their future at this point. Can you say the same for Nintendo? That because of the Wii U's commercial failure, they're going to stop creating home consoles. No, you can't; which is the reason why the Wii U's failure is held up higher in regards to Nintendo. And what new entrant caused the PS3 to sell less than the PS2? Last I checked Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony were all in the 6th and 7th gens. The main reason the PS3 did poorly was because Sony arrogance and they botched the launch. Also, the PS2 being the cheapest DVD player on the market also contributed a lot to its success.

Secondly, where the fuck did I say they need to replicate the successs of the DS to be viable? Nintendo just needs to sell enough consoles to make a profit while at the same time remain relevant in the mainstream market.

Also, excuse my "saltiness" while I play my Wii U and 3DS.

Will Ninty next home console be nothing but another iteration of the handheld? So no you cant say Ninty hasnt given up on the home console business, I love the excuse though keep them coming. Wiius failure is held up higher because people are desperate to shit on anything Ninty related. Thats why I mentioned ps3s failure and ps4 not going anywhere near ps2, because all of that was overlooked while nintys handheld business does the same and gets shitted on for it. You cant even prove Vita really is it for Sony, yet you had no problem pushing it. Because yet again you want to just sweep Sonys issues under the rug. All i see from Ninty these days is take as many franchises that were once home console exclusive over to 3DS as quickly as possible. Sony supports Vita the best way they can, 3rd party support. Its still selling enough to beat Wiiu, some would even argue Vita as better support. So tell me why are you so quick to believe sony is leaving but Ninty isnt? I know, because the agenda of Wiiu being held up higher needs to be supported.

1. Fix your grammar. I understand we're not writing in an English class so mistakes are to be expected. However, it shouldn't be a chore to read through a response.

2. Improve your reading comprehension. Where did I try to "sweep" Sony's failure with the Vita under the rug? I acknowledged they failed in giving the device the first party support it needed to succeed and shifted all of their focus onto the PS4. What am I supposed to? Repeatedly lament on the fact that they failed with the Vita? On a system that they themselves don't even acknowledge. About a future handheld, you're right that I can't prove there won't be another handheld from Sony. However, with how Sony has treated the Vita, it's a fair assumption to make that they won't make another. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong and they're crazy enough to do it again.

Also, you say the Wii U's failure is held up higher because people are "desparate to shit on Nintendo." That might be true for some people, but there are quite a few Nintendo fans on this site that aren't blindly slurping anything Nintendo puts out like yourself. They understand Nintendo's commercial failure with the Wii U and how damaging it is. They don't grasp for pathetic excuses and lash out at everyone when they have the "audacity" to acknowledge it.



Hey guys, let's keep the discussion healthy, ok? This already earned someone a warning and we don't want this to end up badly.



Bet with Teeqoz for 2 weeks of avatar and sig control that Super Mario Odyssey would ship more than 7m on its first 2 months. The game shipped 9.07m, so I won

But it better now then never. Good luck Nintendo



Nintyfan90 said:
curl-6 said:

Support is a symptom, not a cause. Cultural factors play a strong role here; in Japan, high population density, long hours, and long commutes make portables more appealing than consoles, this has been true for some time now. Portables have more strongly entrenched roots there to resist the erosion of their base, but even so 3DS and Vita are in decline from their predecessors. Ultimately, Japan alone is not enough to shore up a global industry in decay.

But according to you smartphones are killing them, wouldnt that make smartphones an even bigger threat in Japan since you know they are portable? Yeah lol, so try again. Also Japan has been this way for a while, yet PS2 sold fine there. So no im not buying these bullshit excuses. You know what I find funny, PS2 had MH and DQ. Now handhelds have them and home consoles fell off a cliff when they lost them. Imagine that.

You can deny it all you want, but the statistics speak for themselves. 3DS is on track to be Nintendo's worst selling portable besides the Virtual Boy, Vita is a disaster, and the portable market has collapsed by over 60% from last gen.



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TheGoldenBoy said:
Nintyfan90 said:

Will Ninty next home console be nothing but another iteration of the handheld? So no you cant say Ninty hasnt given up on the home console business, I love the excuse though keep them coming. Wiius failure is held up higher because people are desperate to shit on anything Ninty related. Thats why I mentioned ps3s failure and ps4 not going anywhere near ps2, because all of that was overlooked while nintys handheld business does the same and gets shitted on for it. You cant even prove Vita really is it for Sony, yet you had no problem pushing it. Because yet again you want to just sweep Sonys issues under the rug. All i see from Ninty these days is take as many franchises that were once home console exclusive over to 3DS as quickly as possible. Sony supports Vita the best way they can, 3rd party support. Its still selling enough to beat Wiiu, some would even argue Vita as better support. So tell me why are you so quick to believe sony is leaving but Ninty isnt? I know, because the agenda of Wiiu being held up higher needs to be supported.

1. Fix your fucking grammar. I understand we're not writing in an English class so mistakes are to be expected. However, it shouldn't be a fucking chore to read through a response.

2. Improve your reading comprehension. Where did I try to "sweep" Sony's failure with the Vita under the rug? I acknowledged they failed in giving the device the first party support it needed to succeed and shifted all of their focus onto the PS4. What am I supposed to? Repeatedly lament on the fact that they failed with the Vita? On a system that they themselves don't even acknowledge. About a future handheld, you're right that I can't prove there won't be another handheld from Sony. However, with how Sony has treated the Vita, it's a fair assumption to make that they won't make another. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong and they're crazy enough to do it again.

Also, you say the Wii U's failure is held up higher because people are desparate to shit on Nintendo. That might be true for some people, but there are quite a few Nintendo fans on this site that aren't blindly slurping anything Nintendo shits like yourself. They understand Nintendo's commercial failure with the Wii U and how damaging it is. They don't grasp for pathetic excuses and lash out at everyone like children having temper tantrums when they have the "audacity" to acknowledge it.

Some should check they language there's Kid and teen coming to this site. If a personal opinion made you that mad (just ignore it) putting oil on the fire made you same has the other user period! 



 

Nintyfan90 said:

I dont know where to even begin. The FAIL is massive. Im not saying what you think im saying at all. What im saying is plain and simple, "handheld games" and "home console games" do not exist. They are all just GAMES, and with the right tech can be put anywhere.

 

Maybe if I said 'games for handheld' and 'games for home console' it would be clearer to you. Yes, in theory, with the right tech any game could be put anywhere. But games for handheld and games for home consoles do exist in Nintendo's current generation of devices, simply because the right tech to put them anywhere will only be available in their next generation of devices. (See Nintendo source later on in this post to support this point)

Nintyfan90 said:

Thats not what I was saying though, im saying there is no difference between MK7 and MK8 besides graphics and some other things which is dictated by what the hardware can do. They are both Mario Kart, one was designed for 3DS and the other for WiiU. Does that make MK8 a home console game? No lol, it could be ported to the next handheld and now its a portable game. Portable and home console only describes the hardware not the software.

Games in the Mario Kart series are pretty generic and work well on both portable and home console with their 3 minute races and 15 minute trophys. Indeed, there's been a MarioKart released for every home console and portable. But other games haven't been designed that way. Take Luigi's Mansion 2 Dark Moon, for example. It was designed specifically with 'gaming on the go' in mind, and so ended up with a different play structure from its home console predecessor.

"By making it so that it was a separate mission structure, players could [also] play the game for a short period of time."- Yoshihito Ikebata, LM2 Supervisor, Nintendo

"We altered the main ghost ‘fishing’ mechanic to match the controls available on the 3DS. The new system of capturing required us to change the way the basic ghosts behave about the mansion." - Bryce Holliday, LM2 Director, Next Level Games

Source

So Luigi's Mansion 2 Dark Moon can be described as a handheld game, or game for handheld, because it was designed as such in terms of gameplay, to be played on a handheld console.

Nintyfan90 said:

 All you did was prove 3DS and Wii or 3DS and WiiU weren't made to be similar, well thats pretty obvious.

Clearly, it wasn't obvious to you before, going by the quotes below.

Nintyfan90: "How much more could Ninty's plats become more integrated? 3DS and WiiU already share alot, " http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=7791219

Nintyfan90: "You never actually said anything that's proves the plats aren't quite alike. What's so different about their OS? They are both pretty barebones and neither has much the other doesn't." http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=7791294

Ninyfan90: "Please tell me what's different besides the obvious power difference?" http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=7791294

However, I'm pleased that you're now enlightened, although it seems from what you've said below, that you've not fully understood any of the sources I gave you:

Nintyfan90 said:
 

All you proved was I am right according to Iwata. Iwata clearly even agrees there is no difference between home and portable besides the hardware inside the platforms. The games can be the same if they used similiar hardware. Understand, this is not about 3ds vs. wiiu. This is about whether home console games can play or function on handhelds. According to Iwata yes, if the hardware is there. Which means there is no difference.

No, quite the opposite. The quote I provided was to demonstrate that the difference between handheld and home console is not just about power, it's about architecture. The quote is about hardware (which includes the Wii U and 3DS), the problem Nintendo faces with the platforms being so different, and what they intend to do about it. Since it appears that you may have misinterpreted that quote, I'll bullet the main points for you.

  • Handheld and home consoles had to be developed separately, because of their technological requirements. This led to completely different architectures and different methods of software development. It requires a huge amount of effort to port games from home console to handheld and vice-versa.
  • If the transition of software from platform to platform is easier, it will help solve the problem of game shortages in the launch periods of new platforms.
  • We are going to create a system that can absorb the Wii U architecture. When this happens, home consoles and handheld devices will no longer be completely different, and they will become like brothers in a family of systems."

Source

In short, the hardware isn't there yet. This means that there is a difference, a difference that Nintendo has had to merge two divisions to address. In fact, if you read Iwata's entire response in full (you can find it in his answer to Q5 in the link above) you will see that they can only start doing this with the next system. (This also supports my first point in this post about the right tech not being there).

Nintyfan90 said:

You have once again failed to name these games the handheld part will gain from Ninty due to a fusion. I find it funny that every person arguing in this thread against my point has yet to name anything. Miyamoto, you, spemanpig, and curl all failed to name anything the NX portable gains from NX home. Here ill help you out, the home console would gain Pokemon and Animal crossing. Now your turn.

I am talking about games made in the future - games that will be made for the NX, games that are made by 1st party, 2nd party and 3rd party that will need minimum effort for them to work on both platforms. This is expected to help get rid of 1st party game droughts, (according to the source above) and entice 3rd party support because of the potentially larger audience that the combined platforms would offer. That is, of course, if the NX is presented as a handheld and a home console with shared architecture.

I would assume that games that were developed specifically for Wii U, 3DS and earlier systems may always be more difficult.

Nintyfan90 said:

3rd party support is the only thing that would make this worth while for the portable side because it already has everything the home console could give it.

No, it doesn't. See second bullet point above.

Nintyfan90 said:

Now tell me, can a portable handle xb1 or ps4 ports? If so then im all for it and cant freaking wait. But i dont think Nintys next portable will pack the tech to do it, it will pack the tech to get cross plat games for NX home. That either makes NX home weaker for the portable side (not much 3rd party support in this scenario) or strong enough for xb1/ps4 ports which the nx portable cant handle, leaving it the less desirable platform.

The arguments I have given are based on

1) The plans Iwata outlined for unifying handheld and home console architecture in a new system during an investors Q&A session in early 2014, and

2) the hypothesis  that the NX will be Nintendo's next generation of both handheld and home console. 

But as I have already stressed before,  we still have no idea what form the NX will take. It could be just a handheld. It could be just a home console. It could be one of each. It could be a single machine that works as both types in some way. It could be a suite of different machines that you mix and match. It could be none of these. All we know for sure is that it is a dedicated games console with a 'brand new concept'.

Therefore nobody can answer your questions, or comment on your speculations in this last point, because there is not enough information yet. We will just have to wait and see.



Hedra42 said:

       Alright, I can agree with all of this. I find the line about Mario Kart being generic alittle offensive, but I understood what you were saying. Wouldnt you say Ninty further designing the game to fit a portable platform understandable? Wiisports could have been on any platform but Wiisports wouldnt have been able to take advantage of the Wii's strength(motion controls). So yeah I understand all of this, but I think what could be unique about a game on NX portable and NX home could be all the modes available on the cartridge or disc(whatever NX uses) could have modes locked away for when its being used on the home console such as local multiplayer. For example, New Super Mario Bros. 3(you know its coming to both) could have online multiplayer mode available to both but local multiplayer available to NX home only. Or maybe Mario tennis be played with buttons on NX portable but motion control on NX home. Its still the same game but can take advantage of each hardware advantages. I believe thats what NX is all about, Ninty is notorious for having games with lots of different controls. Smash is the king of that.

       Those quotes weren't properly explained. I meant they shared the same franchises and dont really offer much more than the other. The games on each will obviously take advantage of the hardware it released on. And many of the things people say NX home and NX port are meant for can be done on 3DS and WiiU. Crossbuy, using the handheld as a controller, and unified accounts are possible to some extent on 3DS and WiiU. Ofcourse NX could take them a step further but thats only because 3DS and WiiU arent meant to do these things.

      Lets not kid ourselves, both plats will make a return. Such a dramatic change aint happening so soon. Them merging their divisions, is them fighting for the survival of both. A machine that tries to do both is way to risky and would fail in atleast one of the markets. Ninty will be back with a home and handheld that share quite similar tech in them, from there we dont know where Ninty is headed. That was the point of this thread. Is a fusion of some sort necessary if you are just chasing 3rd parties.  

 

 


curl-6 said:
Nintyfan90 said:

But according to you smartphones are killing them, wouldnt that make smartphones an even bigger threat in Japan since you know they are portable? Yeah lol, so try again. Also Japan has been this way for a while, yet PS2 sold fine there. So no im not buying these bullshit excuses. You know what I find funny, PS2 had MH and DQ. Now handhelds have them and home consoles fell off a cliff when they lost them. Imagine that.

You can deny it all you want, but the statistics speak for themselves. 3DS is on track to be Nintendo's worst selling portable besides the Virtual Boy, Vita is a disaster, and the portable market has collapsed by over 60% from last gen.

 I haven't denied anything, this matters way too much to you simply because you dont like seeing Ninty bring their best to the portable side and shit on the home console side. You only want the fall of handhelds, so you have a reason for Ninty to go all home console. So enjoy Metroid Prime on Wiiuuu.....oh yeah. Ninty wont let handhelds fall, so keep on begging for WiiU ports. While they keep on supporting handhelds to the best of their abilities. Smartphones killed handhelds but for some "odd" reason we cant figureout why they are killing home consoles in Japan. Oh and heres my favorite part, "3DS is on track to be Nintendo's worst selling portable besides the Virtual Boy" while "WiiU is Nintendo's worst selling home console". You see the difference, 3DS still has very minor chance while WiiU could be done later this year and will be forever cemented as Nintys worst. Sounds like Ninty is putting their eggs in the right basket.



Nintyfan90 said:

Alright, I can agree with all of this. I find the line about Mario Kart being generic alittle offensive, but I understood what you were saying. Wouldnt you say Ninty further designing the game to fit a portable platform understandable? Wiisports could have been on any platform but Wiisports wouldnt have been able to take advantage of the Wii's strength(motion controls). So yeah I understand all of this, but I think what could be unique about a game on NX portable and NX home could be all the modes available on the cartridge or disc(whatever NX uses) could have modes locked away for when its being used on the home console such as local multiplayer. For example, New Super Mario Bros. 3(you know its coming to both) could have online multiplayer mode available to both but local multiplayer available to NX home only. Or maybe Mario tennis be played with buttons on NX portable but motion control on NX home. Its still the same game but can take advantage of each hardware advantages. I believe thats what NX is all about, Ninty is notorious for having games with lots of different controls. Smash is the king of that.

       Those quotes weren't properly explained. I meant they shared the same franchises and dont really offer much more than the other. The games on each will obviously take advantage of the hardware it released on. And many of the things people say NX home and NX port are meant for can be done on 3DS and WiiU. Crossbuy, using the handheld as a controller, and unified accounts are possible to some extent on 3DS and WiiU. Ofcourse NX could take them a step further but thats only because 3DS and WiiU arent meant to do these things.

      Lets not kid ourselves, both plats will make a return. Such a dramatic change aint happening so soon. Them merging their divisions, is them fighting for the survival of both. A machine that tries to do both is way to risky and would fail in atleast one of the markets. Ninty will be back with a home and handheld that share quite similar tech in them, from there we dont know where Ninty is headed. That was the point of this thread. Is a fusion of some sort necessary if you are just chasing 3rd parties.

When I say generic, I mean universal in terms of how the gameplay works for both types of console.

From what we've seen from the quotes, the whole point of unifying the architecture is to make the behind-the-scenes porting and adapting between consoles quicker and easier. It could lead to better quality adaptations with the variations you describe; I have no doubt that Nintendo's developers will take advantage of that. It would certainly enhance what home console games could bring to handhelds (and vice-versa), which I believe was one of the main concerns raised in the OP. But according to Iwata's comments in that Q&A I mentioned, it appears this would only be possible from NX going forward.

In answer to the question, and based on the sources and quotes, I think a fusion of architecture is absolutely necessary if Nintendo want to have a handheld and a home console, and have them both be a success. It is a potential saving on time and resources, which could result in greater efficiency in producing 1st party games, and a greater attractiveness to 3rd parties through exposure to a wider audience.

Nintendo is not about just chasing 3rd parties. Their brand and IP is far too strong for them to drop, and anyway, they're going all out to put their IP out there in mobile apps, theme parks and so on. But okay, if you want me to entertain the hypothetical situation where Nintendo were only creating the NX in order to chase 3rd parties,  a fusion of architecture across both platforms would still be necessary to maximise the chance of 3rd party support, now that the technology is available for them to do it.