Forums - Gaming Discussion - Father includes gender neutral language into The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past

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errorpwns said:
Hynad said:

Nope. You may have described your motivations, not mine. 

Truth of the matter, you complain about the behaviour of some people while displaying the same behaviour you condemn.

Your post offered no substance. He gave a detailed explanation of what was occuring. His explanation was on point. He is feeding his child an illusion. Sheltering her. Possibly  making her selfish. Teaching her that she can always get her way and twsit the world around her to her favor. Give her the belief she can change those around her to her will.  As well as steal others ideas and modify them. Instead of coming up with something original. This is the story of Link. Who happens to be male. Why should everything be genderless in society? Why is gender such a bad thing? Why is it bad that there are stories with men as the protagonist? There is nothing wrong with a story written around a female or male protagonist. You can write stories about whoever and whatever you wish. There shouldn't  be any agenda behind Link being male. It is the story they want to tell. Many females love Link. I also find Zelda to be strong in her right too. She was captured by evil yes, but especially in later Zelda games without her help and her actions Link wouldn't have overcome obstacles. It was more about teamwork than a hero saving a helpless princess. While she was trapped indeed  she didn't become totally helpless. In many ways she was the one who saved herself.

What illusion is he feeding her? You are the ones judging his parenting without even knowing who he is, or who she is.

None of you know anything about his family or what education he gives to her. You're all jumping to hasty conclusions here, and it's quite saddening to witness such a lack of empathy and understanding.




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AlfredoTurkey said:
SuperNova said:
Whats with all the rage? The guy did a nice little thing for his daughter. He didn't even *gasp* make Link female. If anything he very closely adhered to the philosophy the character is build on.

I mean, he is called LINK because he is supposed to link the player to the experience. They are supposed to be able to project themselves on him. Referring to him in gender neutral language is just that basic concept brought to completion. Literally everyone can now project themselves on their Link to the game.

I see this Link argument bought up whenever there is talk of giving him more of a character or even giving him a voice. The argument is always 'I'm against it because he is supposed to be a blank slate fo me to project on, that's his concept', but when someone dares to bring this concept to it's logical conclusion there's suddenly puzzlement, over why anyone would do this.

You can talk about all this with as much philosophical depth as a scholarly paper written about Socrates but at the end of the day, Nintendo made Link a boy. Nintendo wants him to be a boy. It's in the manual. Link is a "he"... and that's that. There's no arguing against it. There's no room for debate. 

The reason people are against this stuff is because some of us (myself included), are tired of their inability to cope with things they don't like. Link is a boy, and they should deal with it. If someone doesn't like it, play a game with a female lead. This concept of an "everybody wins" world is fairy tale by it's very nature. Some things in life can't be changed. Some things MUST be dealt with whether a person likes it or not. People who can't cope with this need some self reflection and self growth. They need to accept that they do not have any control over this world and move on. Running around pissed off at everything around you because it doesn't fit into your personal view of the world isn't going to change shit. This guy hacking Zelda doesn't change shit. Link is a boy in ALTTP, and changing the dialogue doesn't change that. He should have taught his daughter that gender doesn't matter. He should have taught her to be inclusive. That a boy can play a game with a girl lead and visa versa. Instead, he sent the opposite message. He fed her an illusion. 

Yes, I try to look at things objectively, while i see alot of you give a very emotional respones. So what? And to continue my socratian paper, that thing in the manual was a decision drawn by one guy based on his, even by then,  outdated conception of what a protagonist should look like. I honestly think Myamoto mostly defaulted to a male protgonist because he himself is male and because it's the standart for fantasy (and other) protagonists. I don't think it runs much deeper than that. (And there's nothing wrong with that either)

I would absolutely agree. Ironically that argument goes both ways, though. Doesn't your tired and latently angry (I apologize if I have misinterpreted that) response also just show your own inability to cope with things you don't like?

Yeah, Link has always been a boy, and I never minded that. But if Nintendo were to take a step to make him gender neutral, I wouldn't mind either, because it goes with the characters conception and they have every right to do with their intellectual property whatever they please. After all they should have creative freedom right? Now, of course this guy has nothing to do with Nintendo at all and it's just his private little change.

I also wonder why people always have to gravitate to the most negative of possible lessons to retrieve from such a thing. Yes, some things must be dealt with, but there is also a lot of things that, with a little creativity and effort you can change and turn around your way, or make more enjoyable for others. Why couldn't that be the lesson here?

Yes, there are more lessons than one to be had here, and the one you bring up is also a very good one. But it's not like that girl is now forever banned from learning that. Theres more than enough games that have an actual defined protagonist with a real character. Protagonists that aren't supposed to be blank slates in the first place. Not to mention, you know, real life. Yes, media has a considerable impact on us, but if you have an ok upbringing that should only go so far. It's like all those disney movies telling you to believe in your dreams and people getting up in arms about how that teaches kids that you just have to lay back, do nothing and everything will turn out your way. Yet I've never actually met someone who truly believed that. Real life ensues.

In the end it's people getting worked up about something they personally don't like.

Illusion said:
SuperNova said:
Whats with all the rage? The guy did a nice little thing for his daughter. He didn't even *gasp* make Link female. If anything he very closely adhered to the philosophy the character is build on.

I mean, he is called LINK because he is supposed to link the player to the experience. They are supposed to be able to project themselves on him. Referring to him in gender neutral language is just that basic concept brought to completion. Literally everyone can now project themselves on their Link to the game.

I see this Link argument bought up whenever there is talk of giving him more of a character or even giving him a voice. The argument is always 'I'm against it because he is supposed to be a blank slate fo me to project on, that's his concept', but when someone dares to bring this concept to it's logical conclusion there's suddenly puzzlement, over why anyone would do this.

You are right that we are linked to his experience, but that experience is about a boy who has to become a man, overcome evil, and rescue a princess.  Link is not just a genderless avatar like what you would have in Pokemon, his character is an important part of the story just like Master Chief's or Samus's.  If you make him genderless then who is he going to rescue?  Nintendo would have to build a completely new story to accommodate a genderless Link and the franchise would become something other than what it is.  Even Link's strength as a mascot for Nintendo would be harmed because what is he now: a boy or a girl?

I get upset because stories like this shouldn't be news but they are only because the liberal elite has an agenda of forced equality and they want to burn down anything remotely masculin.  If a story about a male hero rescuing a woman whom he cares about and defeating a villain is now considered "sexist" then I honestly think that this society has become a sick place.

I think you would have a case if Link indeed had any sort of defining character. But he doesn't. All of the things you mentioned can be done just as well by a girl or a genderless person. Anyone can grow into adulthood, overcome evil, and rescue a princess. (Seriously why could the princess not be rescued by her female/genderless best buddy? Hell, Impa would probably be more than capable in most incarnations to rescue her, but get's impaired by the story in favor of link because he is your Avatar.)

This universal relatability is one of the things that make the Zelda franchise great. Because we all can relate to growing up and taking resposibilities.

Don't get me wrong, I love boy Link. I think he is awesome, and there is nothing wrong with a 'boy grows up' story at all. (They've been done to death, but hey, you can alway add a new little twist to the formula and make it great again.) He is one of the few characters out there where a change like this is actually not intrusive because it makes sense to to concept of the character though. I would be fully with you if we were talking about Nathan Drake or Lara Croft, but we are talking about Link.

About the mascot thing, I think people would just refer to him as what they think he is. It would be similar to Shepherd. He would just be Link.



Well, he will have to change the sprites, because I can't see myself in link, I'm not long haired, straigth blonde. And sure as hell don't have elfic appearance.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

SuperNova said:
Whats with all the rage? The guy did a nice little thing for his daughter. He didn't even *gasp* make Link female. If anything he very closely adhered to the philosophy the character is build on.

I mean, he is called LINK because he is supposed to link the player to the experience. They are supposed to be able to project themselves on him. Referring to him in gender neutral language is just that basic concept brought to completion. Literally everyone can now project themselves on their Link to the game.

I see this Link argument bought up whenever there is talk of giving him more of a character or even giving him a voice. The argument is always 'I'm against it because he is supposed to be a blank slate fo me to project on, that's his concept', but when someone dares to bring this concept to it's logical conclusion there's suddenly puzzlement, over why anyone would do this.

He is white, blonde and blue eyed I can't link with him.

Hynad said:
errorpwns said:

Your post offered no substance. He gave a detailed explanation of what was occuring. His explanation was on point. He is feeding his child an illusion. Sheltering her. Possibly  making her selfish. Teaching her that she can always get her way and twsit the world around her to her favor. Give her the belief she can change those around her to her will.  As well as steal others ideas and modify them. Instead of coming up with something original. This is the story of Link. Who happens to be male. Why should everything be genderless in society? Why is gender such a bad thing? Why is it bad that there are stories with men as the protagonist? There is nothing wrong with a story written around a female or male protagonist. You can write stories about whoever and whatever you wish. There shouldn't  be any agenda behind Link being male. It is the story they want to tell. Many females love Link. I also find Zelda to be strong in her right too. She was captured by evil yes, but especially in later Zelda games without her help and her actions Link wouldn't have overcome obstacles. It was more about teamwork than a hero saving a helpless princess. While she was trapped indeed  she didn't become totally helpless. In many ways she was the one who saved herself.

What illusion is he feeding her? You are the ones judging his parenting without even knowing who he is, or who she is.

None of you know anything about his family or what education he gives to her. You're all jumping to hasty conclusions here, and it's quite saddening to witness such a lack of empathy and understanding.

He is feeding the ilusion that if you don't like something about someone else or someone's else work you can always change and force it to be of your liking?

SuperNova said:
AlfredoTurkey said:

You can talk about all this with as much philosophical depth as a scholarly paper written about Socrates but at the end of the day, Nintendo made Link a boy. Nintendo wants him to be a boy. It's in the manual. Link is a "he"... and that's that. There's no arguing against it. There's no room for debate. 

The reason people are against this stuff is because some of us (myself included), are tired of their inability to cope with things they don't like. Link is a boy, and they should deal with it. If someone doesn't like it, play a game with a female lead. This concept of an "everybody wins" world is fairy tale by it's very nature. Some things in life can't be changed. Some things MUST be dealt with whether a person likes it or not. People who can't cope with this need some self reflection and self growth. They need to accept that they do not have any control over this world and move on. Running around pissed off at everything around you because it doesn't fit into your personal view of the world isn't going to change shit. This guy hacking Zelda doesn't change shit. Link is a boy in ALTTP, and changing the dialogue doesn't change that. He should have taught his daughter that gender doesn't matter. He should have taught her to be inclusive. That a boy can play a game with a girl lead and visa versa. Instead, he sent the opposite message. He fed her an illusion. 

Yes, I try to look at things objectively, while i see alot of you give a very emotional respones. So what? And to continue my socratian paper, that thing in the manual was a decision drawn by one guy based on his, even by then,  outdated conception of what a protagonist should look like. I honestly think Myamoto mostly defaulted to a male protgonist because he himself is male and because it's the standart for fantasy (and other) protagonists. I don't think it runs much deeper than that. (And there's nothing wrong with that either)

I would absolutely agree. Ironically that argument goes both ways, though. Doesn't your tired and latently angry (I apologize if I have misinterpreted that) response also just show your own inability to cope with things you don't like?

Yeah, Link has always been a boy, and I never minded that. But if Nintendo were to take a step to make him gender neutral, I wouldn't mind either, because it goes with the characters conception and they have every right to do with their intellectual property whatever they please. After all they should have creative freedom right? Now, of course this guy has nothing to do with Nintendo at all and it's just his private little change.

I also wonder why people always have to gravitate to the most negative of possible lessons to retrieve from such a thing. Yes, some things must be dealt with, but there is also a lot of things that, with a little creativity and effort you can change and turn around your way, or make more enjoyable for others. Why couldn't that be the lesson here?

Yes, there are more lessons than one to be had here, and the one you bring up is also a very good one. But it's not like that girl is now forever banned from learning that. Theres more than enough games that have an actual defined protagonist with a real character. Protagonists that aren't supposed to be blank slates in the first place. Not to mention, you know, real life. Yes, media has a considerable impact on us, but if you have an ok upbringing that should only go so far. It's like all those disney movies telling you to believe in your dreams and people getting up in arms about how that teaches kids that you just have to lay back, do nothing and everything will turn out your way. Yet I've never actually met someone who truly believed that. Real life ensues.

In the end it's people getting worked up about something they personally don't like.

Illusion said:

You are right that we are linked to his experience, but that experience is about a boy who has to become a man, overcome evil, and rescue a princess.  Link is not just a genderless avatar like what you would have in Pokemon, his character is an important part of the story just like Master Chief's or Samus's.  If you make him genderless then who is he going to rescue?  Nintendo would have to build a completely new story to accommodate a genderless Link and the franchise would become something other than what it is.  Even Link's strength as a mascot for Nintendo would be harmed because what is he now: a boy or a girl?

I get upset because stories like this shouldn't be news but they are only because the liberal elite has an agenda of forced equality and they want to burn down anything remotely masculin.  If a story about a male hero rescuing a woman whom he cares about and defeating a villain is now considered "sexist" then I honestly think that this society has become a sick place.

I think you would have a case if Link indeed had any sort of defining character. But he doesn't. All of the things you mentioned can be done just as well by a girl or a genderless person. Anyone can grow into adulthood, overcome evil, and rescue a princess. (Seriously why could the princess not be rescued by her female/genderless best buddy? Hell, Impa would probably be more than capable in most incarnations to rescue her, but get's impaired by the story in favor of link because he is your Avatar.)

This universal relatability is one of the things that make the Zelda franchise great. Because we all can relate to growing up and taking resposibilities.

Don't get me wrong, I love boy Link. I think he is awesome, and there is nothing wrong with a 'boy grows up' story at all. (They've been done to death, but hey, you can alway add a new little twist to the formula and make it great again.) He is one of the few characters out there where a change like this is actually not intrusive because it makes sense to to concept of the character though. I would be fully with you if we were talking about Nathan Drake or Lara Croft, but we are talking about Link.

About the mascot thing, I think people would just refer to him as what they think he is. It would be similar to Shepherd. He would just be Link.

To make Link gender neutral after creation would be an enourmous and ridiculous retcom. If they want to start a spin-off with genderless character ok.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Here's an interview with the father responsible of the gender-neutral change, if anyone is interested in reading it.



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Believe it or not, someone doesn't have to match your gender, race, etc to be your hero or role model.

Anyone who isn't narcissistic or an idiot can see past the surface and admire them for the person they are.



So, why is this newsworthy? Who contacted the media to say that this guy did this?