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Forums - Politics - Climate Change: What's your take?

Aielyn said:
Locknuts said:
Not only that, but the computer models appeared to be predicting an increase in global temperatures fairly well for a while.

But then something strange happened....

Observations started deviating from the predictions of the models used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, so they quietly began lowering their short and medium term expected temperature rises.

This is one of those situations where understanding of science is lacking.

They saw the actual data deviating from projections, and started investigating why it was deviating. In the meantime, they noted that there's no reason to assume the deviation will sustain itself, so short-term predictions were adjusted but they just increased the margin of error on longer predictions.

What caused the deviation? The model had failed to account properly for how the southern Pacific Ocean interacts in terms of heat. You've heard of El Nino and La Nina, right? Under El Nino, the Pacific releases heat from deep underwater into the atmosphere. Under La Nina, the Pacific absorbs more heat from the atmosphere. Until the early 2000s, the world was experiencing El Nino. Then it switched to La Nina, and the rate of warming of the atmosphere dropped - it kept warming, but at a much slower rate, because the Pacific was absorbing more heat.

It switched back to El Nino in the middle of last year. So it shouldn't surprise anybody that the warming jumped back into action at full force - hence why there's articles talking now about how 2015 was the hottest year on record, up 0.16 C on 2014.

When they added this effect, which is related to what they call the "Trade Winds", into the models, it became a lot more accurate. And the long-term predictions didn't change much.

There was actually a second thing that was influencing the result, though - it turned out that there was a statistical flaw in the aggregation of the data - when this flaw was corrected, the reduction in rate of warming wasn't as significant as it was before the correction. It was a mathematical flaw, not an interpretation flaw, that was fixed, so this isn't a "fudging the numbers" kind of thing.

Note that the whole thing about the 97% wasn't to say "you should trust it, because scientists say so", it was to say "stop listening to those people who are arguing that it's not happening because of 'no consensus' or 'the science is still out'". It was about countering an existing political message, not about creating a new assertion. It's the science that says it's happening, the 97% statistic shows that it's not a controversial scientific conclusion - scientists, especially those with expertise in the field, aren't doubting the findings in large numbers. There will always be those who challenge any scientific theory or result, but the vast majority view the science as solid.

In other words, it's not "scientists say it, so it's true", it's "the science is solid, so scientists are supporting it".

I wasn't implying that they fudged the numbers. I was implying that they really don't understand the systems of the atmosphere enough to even make accurate computer models predicting future warming. They seem to have acknowledged this in the latest assessment report and aren't making computer model predictions anymore. In fact they really seem to have toned down the alarmism overall. I'm not sure if this is reflective of the latest evidence showing less need for alarm or if they have weeded out some of the activists that were authoring previous reports.





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A related article:

https://newrepublic.com/article/116887/does-climate-change-cause-extreme-weather-i-said-no-and-was-attacked

Obama's advisors are trying to discredit Prof. Robert Pielke Jr. because his facts aren't extreme enough for their purposes.

I hate the way politicians try to discredit good environmental scientists just because they insist on telling the truth.



Shadow1980 said:

Much like the creationism vs. evolution "controversy," global warming is only controversial amongst members of the general public. It is not a controversial theory within the sciences. This whole "debate" should never have been about the merits of the science itself, but instead it should have been about what policy measures we would take to solve the problems of a changing climate. Unfortunately, ideology seems to always trump evidence in the minds of many. It seems that certain belief systems are so revolted, so existentially terrified of the implications of science towards said belief system that they dismiss the science out of hand. I don't believe conservatives reject global warming because an objective assessment of the evidence on their part led them to reject it, but rather because the public policy implications of AGW are so repugnant to their belief in unfettered free markets that they choose to reject the science. Since they refuse to acknowledge that it's a problem, this leads them insist that all these scientists are engaging in a massive hoax and are presumably part of some nefarious cabal of "leftists/socialists/Marxists/[insert ism of choice]" whose goal is global domination.

 

Unfortunately activist organisations have been pushing hard to get people within the IPCC. This raises doubts when there is wiggle room in the data. Membership of an activist organisation, whether it be left or right, should be outright banned among members of an organisation that is supposed to be neutral. If that had happened, people would be more focused on the issue rather than trying to pick apart the science.





Locknuts said:

I wasn't implying that they fudged the numbers. I was implying that they really don't understand the systems of the atmosphere enough to even make accurate computer models predicting future warming. They seem to have acknowledged this in the latest assessment report and aren't making computer model predictions anymore. In fact they really seem to have toned down the alarmism overall. I'm not sure if this is reflective of the latest evidence showing less need for alarm or if they have weeded out some of the activists that were authoring previous reports.



No, they don't have a clue, hense why all the models have a fudge factor, and they cant' even remotely back check the models, and whilst they don't fudge the individual numbers, they do fudge the overall numbers, as they give differing source numbers differing weights, so a prime one is that they are now giving the readings from sea bouys and ship readings more than land based readings, so obviously this can lead to very differing results in what the 'global temperature' is. And honestly the ranges that they're measuring this is so small that error is a massive problem.





pleaserecycle said:

 

Groundking said:

1) whislt yes we know that CO2 increases the temperature in a closed system, the Earth is NOT a closed system, so taking this and thinking that an increase in CO2 in the atmosphere will lead to an increase in the temperature is a false assumption, as it's not know how it works in an open system. 

 

Physics remains the same in closed and open systems, but the models we use become increasingly complex in an open system.  It's possible to detect a decrease in temperature while carbon dioxide concentration increases, but then there must be another force more dominant than carbon dioxide.  Imagine I'm pushing a box in one direction.  In order to push the box in the other direction some one else must overcome the weight of the box and the force of my push.  If some one else only observed my force, they might believe that motion occurs in the direction opposite of the direction of the force.  But they'd be incorrect because they missed the opposing force.  

I mean FFS come on people.

I'm nitpicking, but your listed carbon dioxide concentration is off by magnitudes...

Many factors contribute to the global temperature, but it would be unfortunate to ignore one due to its size.  It would take an aluminum sphere with a large volume to match the mass of a small lead ball.  Much like different elements have different densities, different gases will absorb and emit radiation more or less effectively.  I would be surprised if the fluctuations of the sun's emission (measureables) are not considered in models unless they are shown to have no effect.  

Yes, but in a closed system not EVERYTHING is simulated, and the things that are are sometimes simulated inaccurately, simply because there are more things affecting the physics in an open system as compared to a closed system. Yes I've dealt with the idea that there are other forces on the temperature, and I've criticised whether CO2 is actually powerful enough for us to have a significant impact. Hell we know for a start that there are other, more powerful, greenhouse gasses. All I'm trying to say is that, whilst the assumption may be, and is likely, to be correct, but to CLAIM, like so many climate scientists do, that an increase in CO2 in the atmosphere does absolutely increase temperature that's simply wrong, as it's a definate statement, and it's not a definate idea. Also CO2 doesn't just stay as CO2 in the atmosphere, there are lots of chemical reactions in the atmopshere that occur which changes one thing to another.

Yes I've appologised for this in another post, I really don't know why I was thinking in PPB instead of PPM

Fluctuations aren't considered due to the fact that it's current impossible to predict, then use the assumption that the solar radiation is going ot be fairly stable going forwards. This is part of the reason why they're using fudge factors. Plus there's the problem that the satalites measuring TSI are within the Earths atmoshpere, so we're not even getting accurate numbers there either. All this is just error which leads to massive innacuracies, which is why the models are total shit

 



 





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Groundking said:

Also CO2 doesn't just stay as CO2 in the atmosphere, there are lots of chemical reactions in the atmopshere that occur which changes one thing to another.

They know. (see Ocean acidification levels).

You know those Vostok charts you posted never go above 300, while current ppm is over 400? 





Hmm, pie.

The Fury said:
Groundking said:

Also CO2 doesn't just stay as CO2 in the atmosphere, there are lots of chemical reactions in the atmopshere that occur which changes one thing to another.

They know. (see Ocean acidification levels).

You know those Vostok charts you posted never go above 300, while current ppm is over 400? 



Yes, but they don't know everything that happens is the point. And if you knew anything about the vostok charts you'd realise why, but to enlighten you, they're the data from ice cores, so are a historical record, we have a pretty good record for the past near 100 years, it's before that we have no idea, and that's what the vostok ice core mission is all about.





Groundking said:

Yes, but they don't know everything that happens is the point. And if you knew anything about the vostok charts you'd realise why, but to enlighten you, they're the data from ice cores, so are a historical record, we have a pretty good record for the past near 100 years, it's before that we have no idea, and that's what the vostok ice core mission is all about.

I'm enlighten already, thanks. Just pointing out that 400 is more than 300. Global natural cycles that they can measure for the last 400,000 years has less Co2 in the atmosphere than we currently do.

Scientist also don't know the actual reason gravity works either, doesn't mean it isn't and won't in the future.





Hmm, pie.

Groundking said:
pleaserecycle said:

 

Physics remains the same in closed and open systems, but the models we use become increasingly complex in an open system.  It's possible to detect a decrease in temperature while carbon dioxide concentration increases, but then there must be another force more dominant than carbon dioxide.  Imagine I'm pushing a box in one direction.  In order to push the box in the other direction some one else must overcome the weight of the box and the force of my push.  If some one else only observed my force, they might believe that motion occurs in the direction opposite of the direction of the force.  But they'd be incorrect because they missed the opposing force.  

I mean FFS come on people.

I'm nitpicking, but your listed carbon dioxide concentration is off by magnitudes...

Many factors contribute to the global temperature, but it would be unfortunate to ignore one due to its size.  It would take an aluminum sphere with a large volume to match the mass of a small lead ball.  Much like different elements have different densities, different gases will absorb and emit radiation more or less effectively.  I would be surprised if the fluctuations of the sun's emission (measureables) are not considered in models unless they are shown to have no effect.  

Yes, but in a closed system not EVERYTHING is simulated, and the things that are are sometimes simulated inaccurately, simply because there are more things affecting the physics in an open system as compared to a closed system. Yes I've dealt with the idea that there are other forces on the temperature, and I've criticised whether CO2 is actually powerful enough for us to have a significant impact. Hell we know for a start that there are other, more powerful, greenhouse gasses. All I'm trying to say is that, whilst the assumption may be, and is likely, to be correct, but to CLAIM, like so many climate scientists do, that an increase in CO2 in the atmosphere does absolutely increase temperature that's simply wrong, as it's a definate statement, and it's not a definate idea. Also CO2 doesn't just stay as CO2 in the atmosphere, there are lots of chemical reactions in the atmopshere that occur which changes one thing to another.

Yes I've appologised for this in another post, I really don't know why I was thinking in PPB instead of PPM

Fluctuations aren't considered due to the fact that it's current impossible to predict, then use the assumption that the solar radiation is going ot be fairly stable going forwards. This is part of the reason why they're using fudge factors. Plus there's the problem that the satalites measuring TSI are within the Earths atmoshpere, so we're not even getting accurate numbers there either. All this is just error which leads to massive innacuracies, which is why the models are total shit

 


If these models come from peer-reviewed literature, I guarantee they're using real data obtained from measurements.  We have equations that calculate solar irradiance and measurements to support the mathematics.  The fluctuations of solar irradiance are so minimal that models most likely use the average measured value.  

We know that increased carbon dioxide results in increased temperature.  We cannot accept it in one instance and neglect it in another without reasoning.  Admittedly, there are cases where physics breaks down, such as classical mechanics on very small or very large scales, but we have an explanation.  For example, classical mechanics equations do not accurately represent processes at the quantum level because the idea of a measurement becomes obscured.  So why wouldn't an increase in carbon dioxide contribute to an increase in temperature?  As I mentioned before, it's possible to detect increased carbon dioxide and a net decreased temperature in a system, but then there must be another factor(s) contributing to the decreased temperature.



hershel_layton said:
I will repeat this for the thousandth time: WHY.IS.THIS.CONSIDERED.A.POLITICAL.ISSUE?

Because the main application of the science is political (should government step in and influence human behavior to mitigate humanity's role in climate chang or not? By how much? What is the cost-risk-benefit of this? Etc? Etc?)  It is that simple.