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Forums - Politics Discussion - Can Feminists Get Any More Desperate?

Netyaroze said:
DonFerrari said:
Netyaroze said:
Feminism has a huge image problem. Most of the prominent feminist thinkers are radical in their views. The people that write the books that other women read are often nut cases.

The output of feminist media is often very biased.

The normal and reasonable feminist might be the majority sadly they are the silent majority and don t speak out against bullshit and dont try to actively fight against the vocal and radical minority.

I don`t ever see reasonable feminists going against the crazy ones.

Like most peacefull islamic people don't combact isis or terrorists and most peacefull german didn't fight the nazi... but yet for the extreminists of social rights movement we need to accept then as abheration

 Fighting ISIS or the Nazis comes/came at the risk of your life. So the circumstances are not the same. Some moderate feminist speaking out against the crazyness in a public forum. Or openly critisizing stupid things in their own movement would be nice.

Some prominent feminist leader or feminist association speaking out against this kind of nonsense would be enough but that does not seem to happen.  

Yep... great risk, but in ISIS cases even muslim outside of ISIS direct grasp aren't very vocal. german nazi in the beggining was possible to combat front to front but sure when it was blatantly obvious how vicious it could be it had passed the point of common citizen being able to uphold against it.

In the case of feminism there isn't any obvious instance of real danger against women that stand against feminazism, but most women I see doing that isn't feminists and they abhor the movement. Unless we coun't some feminists in Youtube that properly address the female issues and don't shift the blame or demonize men, those girls I like to hear. Feminazi and apologetics I can't stand.

Zanten said:
I'd like to think that the vast majority of those who immediately turn to 'Well, the girl shouldn't look so attractive' do so more out of a desire to feel like there is some level of control over the situation, or more accurately over their own safety. Society likes to have things quantified, explained, given closure on the what, when, where, and especially the 'Why.' The thing is, it's all but impossible to predict the variables of an inherently unknown number of people you haven't met before who may or may not harbor ill will towards you; the next person you have a one night stand with, regardless of gender, might leave you waking up naked with all your shit stolen. Hell, the next person you let into your HOUSE might slide a knife between your ribs because of some undefined murderous intent or mental illness. The next guy you sit beside on the public bus might slit your throat. Statistically highly unlikely, of course, but still POSSIBLE, and in many cases this violence can come from someone you don't know, who doesn't know you, and is only doing this to you because you're a target of convenience. This makes it inherently difficult to predict or 'prevent' a perpetrator from... well, perpetrating, because you probably won't know his intent or motives until the deed is already done. =P

So attention is focused on the only relatively 'known' variable, the woman who has been, or might be, the victim of such an assault, whether it was her outfit, where she was at the time, or the state she was in. The reason for all this is because it brings an odd sense of comfort to just think 'Oh, well, she had too much alcohol, of COURSE she got sexually assaulted,' or 'Oh, she was dressed provocatively, of course men want to have sex with her,' etc, etc. Because by saying this, there's the flip side, the 'If I (or those I care about) DON'T do these things, then obviously they'll be totally safe, because they weren't putting themselves in such a situation.' By that same token, when you read about people who tried to sell something on Craigslist or the like, agreed to meet someone in a vacant lot to make the exchange, and ended up getting shot and/or killed with the object itself stolen, there's always the 'Well, yeah, they went to meet a complete stranger in the middle of the night in a deserted place, of COURSE that happened!' Because the mirror to that is 'I'd never meet a complete stranger in the middle of the night in a deserted place, I'm perfectly safe.'

And to be fair, there are always things you can do to reduce the chance of something bad happening to you. Install bars and a security door in your home so people can't break in, avoid any shadowy places or alleyway entrances or really any deserted streets at all, never leave the house after the sun has gone down, don't dress in expensive looking clothes that might peg you as a good mugging target, never drink heavily in public venues regardless of gender or age, don't take the bait if someone tries to pick a fight with you, etc, etc. Doing some or all of these things will lessen the chance that you find yourself in a bad spot.

But bottom line is that the other half of the equation has to be dealt with, and that's that people who assault, steal, rape, and all manner of other things need to be reformed, detained, or otherwise handled. No matter how mild mannered someone is, no matter how 'properly' someone behaves, they will never be totally safe in society. Those who sexually assault a woman, no matter how drunk, stoned or otherwise out of her head she is, need to answer for it as the criminal they are, and the victim needs to be given full support and care, not a string of 'Well, You Should(n't) Haves'.

The question of educating potential victims on how they can best guard themselves is something I believe to be important, but note I say POTENTIAL victims. I.e. men and women who are settling into society and still finding their way. In a situation where we are dealing with a crime already committed then full attention, fury and condemnation should be dealt to the one who carried out the deed, not upon the one on whom the deed was carried out.

tl;dr: People crave feeling like they're in control of any situation, which is where I feel a lot of victim-blaming comes from, the idea of 'Well, if she didn't do x thing, she'd be safe.' (Replace 'she' with 'Me or my loved ones' in all these cases for the subtext.) But the truth is, society is inherently unsafe, and unpredictable, so while to a certain extent education is vital ('Don't Trust Strangers' or 'Put On A Seatbelt When Driving,') just as important if not more so is swift and decisive handling of the perpetrators of such crimes, be they rapists or dangerous/drunk drivers.

I think you answered yourself... we have to address both sides, the agressor (that we don't have direct power over it, but as a society need to fight) and the victm (that we have more power, being ourselves or people close to us)... and until we give the idea that all the blame and bad is fault of the aggressor and don't teach responsibility to our kids they will expose more to danger.

I'm not at fault when I get robbed, but If I go to a very violent neighbourhood with a convertible Mercedes-Benz and get assalted I'm partially to blame for putting myself in danger.



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http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

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ganoncrotch said:
Man with all the replies here I felt I had to watch the video to find out if it was as bad as I would have imagined.... deary me, not disappointed.
The leaps and bounds made during it lead me to believe that the person who created it is maybe in 2nd year of gender studies with a minor.... a very minor possibly failed at first year in some form of film direction. It takes the same kind of leaps that if you were to hold them up as being true would mean you could blame every house fire in the world on the presence of a toilet in the home, Since there is always a toilet there that must mean every toilet is an arsonist.
This sort of media created in my opinion does one thing for current age feminism, it creates viewers who watch it and facepalm, viewers who the creator can then point to and say they are facepalming it because they hate women or they are victim blaming or so, the reality of it is I facepalmed that video because that video was a pile of shit, regardless of the subject matter.

Still tho! It got a view from me, Kudos Video!

It was great.

It's like a lot of their dumb studies that they take two very unlikely related issues and make them magically correlate to say they have a causation relationship.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Azuren said:

I don't believe anyone in this thread expressed that sentiment. I believe the thought was "Maybe she should be wasted out of her mind at a party with his who are ways out of their minds in the first place". As a parent, I wouldn't allow that kind of behavior. As a realist, I know it will be hard to stop. 

 

But as a realist, I also know I have a better chance of stopping her from going to that party than I do stopping a bunch of drunk high school boys from trying to rape her once she's there and wasted.

Nah, nobody was specifically, which was why I didn't really quote anyone. It's largely been gnawing on me for awhile though, so it was in part to get my own thoughts down. x3 With regards to the video itself, while it does obviously lean too far towards hyperbole, at the same time (as someone who's grown up with a close relationship with my little sister and been privvy to the full spectrum of what an attractive young girl-and-eventually-woman can be exposed to) I've definitely seen enough horrid behavior to kind of see what might twist a person that strongly, especially if they weren't fortunate enough to have strongly positive male figures in their live to act as a counterbalance. o_o

Even the aforementioned sister, despite having a solid head on her shoulders, great sense of humor about the situation, would occasionally express her frustration at the kind of shite she has to slog through on her dating profile, which avoided any form of provocative pictures (No cleavage, no flimsy attire, the most provocative thing that can be said about them is her shirts are snug enough to comfirm that she is indeed a girl =P ) and even outright states no interest in sexual encounters or 'flings,' and still got inundated with countless messages that ranged from disgusting to creepy, with only a few gems of civility sprinkled here and there. Even half of those gems would inevitably turn disgusting or creepy after a few replies. Not even counting the in-person encounters, catcalls, etc. At the same time, though, she's had plenty of guy friends who were, and still are, supportive and protective of her, and as such it's kind of resulted in the 'Well, there are a LOT of jerks out there... but also nice guys. ^^ ' outlook she has. Which is probably the best outlook to have, really. =P

Hell, at times, when she'd show me the contents of her Plenty of Fish inbox, I'D kind of start to hate my own gender too, and I've got first-hand experience that we're not all assholes. x3 The Internet likely magnifies the negative, of course, as anonimity can certainly bring out the very worst in people.



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Thunderbird77 said:

Can't believe there are still ignorant people spreading that feminism = man hating. man hating = femism.

 


Well that video is 100% man hating bullshit.



DonFerrari said:
ganoncrotch said:
Man with all the replies here I felt I had to watch the video to find out if it was as bad as I would have imagined.... deary me, not disappointed.
The leaps and bounds made during it lead me to believe that the person who created it is maybe in 2nd year of gender studies with a minor.... a very minor possibly failed at first year in some form of film direction. It takes the same kind of leaps that if you were to hold them up as being true would mean you could blame every house fire in the world on the presence of a toilet in the home, Since there is always a toilet there that must mean every toilet is an arsonist.
This sort of media created in my opinion does one thing for current age feminism, it creates viewers who watch it and facepalm, viewers who the creator can then point to and say they are facepalming it because they hate women or they are victim blaming or so, the reality of it is I facepalmed that video because that video was a pile of shit, regardless of the subject matter.

Still tho! It got a view from me, Kudos Video!

It was great.

It's like a lot of their dumb studies that they take two very unlikely related issues and make them magically correlate to say they have a causation relationship.

 

Aye Like I said, after all the house fires which have happened in homes with a toilet, it's almost 100% of the time, how haven't we reacted as a society to remove this menace!!!

Still tho, the fact that guys use those words at times, but no mention of girls ever using them, is Whore the new N word? like, it's their Word, guys can't use it tho! If that is the path this is aiming to go down... it's goal is to create a Them/Us situation, I don't really see a great end game for that.



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Feminazis, I hate feminazis.



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DonFerrari said:
Netyaroze said:
DonFerrari said:
Netyaroze said:
Feminism has a huge image problem. Most of the prominent feminist thinkers are radical in their views. The people that write the books that other women read are often nut cases.

The output of feminist media is often very biased.

The normal and reasonable feminist might be the majority sadly they are the silent majority and don t speak out against bullshit and dont try to actively fight against the vocal and radical minority.

I don`t ever see reasonable feminists going against the crazy ones.

Like most peacefull islamic people don't combact isis or terrorists and most peacefull german didn't fight the nazi... but yet for the extreminists of social rights movement we need to accept then as abheration

 Fighting ISIS or the Nazis comes/came at the risk of your life. So the circumstances are not the same. Some moderate feminist speaking out against the crazyness in a public forum. Or openly critisizing stupid things in their own movement would be nice.

Some prominent feminist leader or feminist association speaking out against this kind of nonsense would be enough but that does not seem to happen.  

Yep... great risk, but in ISIS cases even muslim outside of ISIS direct grasp aren't very vocal. german nazi in the beggining was possible to combat front to front but sure when it was blatantly obvious how vicious it could be it had passed the point of common citizen being able to uphold against it.

 

Actually, here is the front of a leaflet I was handed from a Muslim in my local town on Saturday. (I live in a Northern English town for geographical reference)

 

 

I find it sad that they feel the need to have to explain anything.



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Zanten said:
Azuren said:
 

I don't believe anyone in this thread expressed that sentiment. I believe the thought was "Maybe she should be wasted out of her mind at a party with his who are ways out of their minds in the first place". As a parent, I wouldn't allow that kind of behavior. As a realist, I know it will be hard to stop. 

 

But as a realist, I also know I have a better chance of stopping her from going to that party than I do stopping a bunch of drunk high school boys from trying to rape her once she's there and wasted.

Nah, nobody was specifically, which was why I didn't really quote anyone. It's largely been gnawing on me for awhile though, so it was in part to get my own thoughts down. x3 With regards to the video itself, while it does obviously lean too far towards hyperbole, at the same time (as someone who's grown up with a close relationship with my little sister and been privvy to the full spectrum of what an attractive young girl-and-eventually-woman can be exposed to) I've definitely seen enough horrid behavior to kind of see what might twist a person that strongly, especially if they weren't fortunate enough to have strongly positive male figures in their live to act as a counterbalance. o_o

Even the aforementioned sister, despite having a solid head on her shoulders, great sense of humor about the situation, would occasionally express her frustration at the kind of shite she has to slog through on her dating profile, which avoided any form of provocative pictures (No cleavage, no flimsy attire, the most provocative thing that can be said about them is her shirts are snug enough to comfirm that she is indeed a girl =P ) and even outright states no interest in sexual encounters or 'flings,' and still got inundated with countless messages that ranged from disgusting to creepy, with only a few gems of civility sprinkled here and there. Even half of those gems would inevitably turn disgusting or creepy after a few replies. Not even counting the in-person encounters, catcalls, etc. At the same time, though, she's had plenty of guy friends who were, and still are, supportive and protective of her, and as such it's kind of resulted in the 'Well, there are a LOT of jerks out there... but also nice guys. ^^ ' outlook she has. Which is probably the best outlook to have, really. =P

Hell, at times, when she'd show me the contents of her Plenty of Fish inbox, I'D kind of start to hate my own gender too, and I've got first-hand experience that we're not all assholes. x3 The Internet likely magnifies the negative, of course, as anonimity can certainly bring out the very worst in people.

I grew up in a house full of brothers, extended male family, and male cousins. That said, my mom gave me some fairly sound advice growing up: "If you don't want your Nana hearing about it, you probably shouldn't be doing it."





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The reports are strong with this thread.

General warning. Personal insults, incitement of violence against individuals or groups, sexist and or racist comments are against forum rules. Some people need to be a little more cautious with 'they were asking for it'-type arguments. From this post forward, we'll start moderating people who cross lines.

OT:

I am at work, and have not watched the video yet. I will say that the thread title alone implies a level of generalization that reeks of over-reaction. Meeting a few feminists in your day-to-day life that are - in your opinion - overzealous man-haters, does not invalidate a movement that incorporates both men and women, and is focused on equality, not triumph.



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DonFerrari said:

I think you answered yourself... we have to address both sides, the agressor (that we don't have direct power over it, but as a society need to fight) and the victm (that we have more power, being ourselves or people close to us)... and until we give the idea that all the blame and bad is fault of the aggressor and don't teach responsibility to our kids they will expose more to danger.

I'm not at fault when I get robbed, but If I go to a very violent neighbourhood with a convertible Mercedes-Benz and get assalted I'm partially to blame for putting myself in danger.

True, though (and this is admittedly largely semantics) I do think it's impotant to set the distinction that all the 'bad,' (basically, malicious or ill intent,) is the fault of the aggressor. :/ In essense, while I think it is vital to educate people in how to best avoid putting themselves in situation of overt danger or risk, the actual responsibility for the act itself should remain firmly in the hands of the person carrying said act out. I.E. 'There are really, REALLY shitty people out there, and there's not much, if anything, you can do to dissuade them from doing shitty things to you.'

This is partly because as I said before, it's inherently difficult to predict if someone you've never before met might mean you harm, and constant vigilence is something I find pretty vital, even if it's something as simple as not letting yourself drift off to sleep in an exposed venue. Especially given there are acts of violence that can genuinely be causeless, to the point of nonsensical, the lesson should be made that '...and even if you do ALL this stuff I just said... honestly, something bad might still happen, and if it does, it's not your fault, and you should know that you can tell me ANYTHING and we'll work through it together.'

Just because you're more likely to be assaulted in a violent neighborhood with your Mercedes-Benz doesn't mean you might not still get jumped in an otherwise safe region... the difference being that in the violent neighborhood, you might take even the basic precaution of not daudling about, and locking your doors while rolling up your windows, while in the safer region you do none of these things and are in fact even more easily assaulted as a result. =P



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Unless He Forgets In Which Case Zanten, Forgetter Of The Things

Or He Procrascinates, In Which Case Zanten, Doer Of The Things Later

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