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Forums - Nintendo - Fatal Frame’s Lost Decade

Considering the sales of the first 3 games on the 6th gen systems, I doubt we would have gotten 4 further games from this IP if it weren´t for Nintendo showing interest.

Another series that is in the Horror genre and started on PS2 and even had a PS3 entry is Siren, which even had former Silent Hill staff on-board, was published by Sony and were released on supposedly "right" systems namely PS2 and PS3.

I mention this series for it beeing a Horror game, released on the "right" target audience and roughly similar sales, maybe even a little bit better. The interesting point though is, that despite no need to pay 3rd party royalties and beeing released by Sony, the series is pretty much dead by now.

In other words I really would be more hesitant to oversimplify and call them sell-outs or greedy. A 3rd party product that would also need to pay 3rd party royalties, would very likely simply have lead to an earlier end of the IP just like Siren.



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curl-6 said:

The impact of the 'censorship' is often overstated. I can't imagine many rationally minded folks letting something like that determine their purchase.

"Oh no, the game doesn't let me oogle a 17 year old in lingerie! OMG, boycott!"

 

justiceiro said:
On one side, nintendo have exclusive rigths over FF is more of a rumor, never officially confirmed. Besides, about censorship, actually, it didn't needed before because before nintendo, they didn't really made sexual outfit for the protagonits. Its something that only started to appear on the franchise in the ff2 remake, i think, that was exclusive for wii.

On the other side, being exclusive to nitenndo platafform actually hurt the chances of the franchises to expanding. C'mom guys, its not like nintendo wiiu owners are getting survival horror games in droves (like zombiu proved), except for the letter(lol). Resident evil, dead space, all horror franchises that strugled to sell on nintendo console when were exclusives to it. Maybe there is a market there, but not as big as the ones in the other platafforms.

In the end, i'm not really sure of the point that op is trying to make. Like, tecmo is still making games for it, and at each iteration, the game gos out of japan more and more. You are getting more games. It really that much important if its in the top of sales chart for you?

Except for the fact that Fatal Frame 2 actually had sexualized costumes. PS2 had gothic lolita outfits for Mayu and Mio, while Xbox brought up Bikini outfits for the same 15 and 16 years old charcaters. Marie Rose from DoA5 last round for PS4 another KoeiTecmo game has a Bikini outfit and shes 17 years old.

Nintendo straight up censored the costumes in Fatal Frame 5 for both Yuri and Miu and dowgraded the boob physics too. Why couldnt they raise the age of Miu to 18? because hey they did it before for both protaginsts In the Fatal Frame 2 Wii remake didnt they? Or why had Yuris costume to be censored too, isnt she 18 allready? And why removing the boob physics for all characters? So many unanswered questions.

There are so many ways Nintendo could have handled it better but no they straignt up disrespect Fatal Frame fans and replace them with their own nintendo outfits. Who asked for this?

And yes it hurted sales espacially for a lot of people who didnt ended up having a physical copy avaible. And it doesnt matter how much of an impact it had it is just another reason why this series never should be ended up being with Nintendo.



 

fluky-nintendy said:
I never played any of the games myself but it seems like another of those cases of games that are really popular in one platform that by greed and money hatting, these companies sell their soul to a platform that has nothing to do with the genre of games they are offering. Just like ROTR scenario (even though FF is not as popular).

Finnally someone who understands where i am coming from. Most people completley ignroe my Posts here despite with me giving countles of arguments, like when KoeITecmo randomly made a new Decpetion game in 2014 and an expansion in 2015. that series sold even less than the Fatal Frame series.

KoeiTecmo isnt like the other devolopers, they were never a AAA devoloper. Their games always sold less units and were made with a lower budget, it never stopped them in making new games. Almost all of their IPs are still keep running but Fatal Frame has more potential and is held down by Nintendo.

And i am really worried this could be the last one dueto being the 5fth now.



Jon-Erich said:
Personally, I think Nintendo should be more invested into the series. They should have done a physical release for the 5th game in North America and packaged it with the 4th game that we never got. I think if Nintendo were to invest in any mature series, Fatal Frame would be good since it very much is something Nintendo would make if they were to make an M rated game.

However, the claims that Nintendo killed the series are bogus. First of all, the series may have started when Silent Hill, Resident Evil and Clock Tower were at the top of their game but that was just a coincidence. Sales for the series have always been terrible. There have never been big marketing campaigns. The fact that we even saw three games in the series prior to Nintendo's takeover is nothing short of a miracle. The fact that Nintendo got their hands on the series is surprising given that prior to the 4th game, the series had never appeared on a Nintendo console. That means that Sony or Microsoft or any of the other major players felt the series wasn't even worth their time.

It's kind of like Bayonetta 2. People were mad about it being exclusive to Wii U even though it wouldn't have existed. The difference is unlike Fatal Frame, Bayonetta actually had a market to work with, so getting a western release wasn't even a question.

I am not sure even if putting in 4 with a physical release of 5 would've made a significant difference in terms of sales. Bayonetta 2 did that and had a better marketing campaign than the Fatal Frame franchise, in general, ever had and it's still considered niche, albeit a much better niche commerically and critically.

I agree with your sentiments, however, on Nintendo saving the series. While some could claim that the series could've continued with or without Nintendo, I cannot see it, considering how considerably bad the sales are for EVERY installment, including those that are on the best selling home console of all-time, the PS2. I mean, FF4 (on the Wii) was the highest selling title in the franchise, and it was only released in Japan! Which is kinda sad. I think we're fortunate to even have FF5 in the West, considering the series' history of poor sales from all regions.

I doubt anyone else would've considered buying rights to this series if it weren't Nintendo to be honest. If Sony or Microsoft wanted to do it, they could've done it a long time ago. Same thing with Bayonetta.



Ruler said:
curl-6 said:

The impact of the 'censorship' is often overstated. I can't imagine many rationally minded folks letting something like that determine their purchase.

"Oh no, the game doesn't let me oogle a 17 year old in lingerie! OMG, boycott!"

 

 

justiceiro said:
On one side, nintendo have exclusive rigths over FF is more of a rumor, never officially confirmed. Besides, about censorship, actually, it didn't needed before because before nintendo, they didn't really made sexual outfit for the protagonits. Its something that only started to appear on the franchise in the ff2 remake, i think, that was exclusive for wii.

On the other side, being exclusive to nitenndo platafform actually hurt the chances of the franchises to expanding. C'mom guys, its not like nintendo wiiu owners are getting survival horror games in droves (like zombiu proved), except for the letter(lol). Resident evil, dead space, all horror franchises that strugled to sell on nintendo console when were exclusives to it. Maybe there is a market there, but not as big as the ones in the other platafforms.

In the end, i'm not really sure of the point that op is trying to make. Like, tecmo is still making games for it, and at each iteration, the game gos out of japan more and more. You are getting more games. It really that much important if its in the top of sales chart for you?

Except for the fact that Fatal Frame 2 actually had sexualized costumes. PS2 had gothic lolita outfits for Mayu and Mio, while Xbox brought up Bikini outfits for the same 15 and 16 years old charcaters. Marie Rose from DoA5 last round for PS4 another KoeiTecmo game has a Bikini outfit and shes 17 years old.

Nintendo straight up censored the costumes in Fatal Frame 5 for both Yuri and Miu and dowgraded the boob physics too. Why couldnt they raise the age of Miu to 18? because hey they did it before for both protaginsts In the Fatal Frame 2 Wii remake didnt they? Or why had Yuris costume to be censored too, isnt she 18 allready? And why removing the boob physics for all characters? So many unanswered questions.

There are so many ways Nintendo could have handled it better but no they straignt up disrespect Fatal Frame fans and replace them with their own nintendo outfits. Who asked for this?

And yes it hurted sales espacially for a lot of people who didnt ended up having a physical copy avaible. And it doesnt matter how much of an impact it had it is just another reason why this series never should be ended up being with Nintendo.

As a FFrame fan, I don't feel disrespected at all. I'm actually the opposite. I feel like they are not only respecting the series, but the characters and genre in general. Sure, sexy costumes in the game would be nice for some, but it doesn't really make sense here. They could have just kept them in there and treat it as just a game, but I think Ninten wanted to treat the game better than that than to just give players this sort of eye candy reward for completing the game.

Also, Nintendo is not the one holding them down. The dev teams went to them for 4 and 5 to develop the game, as they saw potential in the Wiimote and Gamepad, not the other way around. They could have gone anywhere else, but they chose to go to Nintendo.



 

              

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Rogerioandrade said:
Ruler said:

the japanese numbers on VGchartz are wrong and you forgot to include FT4


it probably has sold over a million now. The Deception Series was a commecial failure but that hasnt stopped KoeiTecmo from making a new game in 2014 and localizing it digitally and physicley and making an expansion this year. KoeiTecmo games are nothing but commercial smaller titles.

Just because it sells less doesnt stop them from devoloping because those games never had a high budget

Even for Japanese standards those numbers are pretty low. No single game ever reached 80k. Sales in the West probably had more depressing numbers.

Not launching the series in the West after the third game was simply a financial matter: the sales projection wouldn´t match the investiment required in their localizations

This just isn't true. Tecmo localizes things with far less apeal and market than Fatal Frame. They release them in all regions, with physical/digital versions, and dual audio.



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Ruler said:
curl-6 said:

The impact of the 'censorship' is often overstated. I can't imagine many rationally minded folks letting something like that determine their purchase.

"Oh no, the game doesn't let me oogle a 17 year old in lingerie! OMG, boycott!"

 

justiceiro said:
On one side, nintendo have exclusive rigths over FF is more of a rumor, never officially confirmed. Besides, about censorship, actually, it didn't needed before because before nintendo, they didn't really made sexual outfit for the protagonits. Its something that only started to appear on the franchise in the ff2 remake, i think, that was exclusive for wii.

On the other side, being exclusive to nitenndo platafform actually hurt the chances of the franchises to expanding. C'mom guys, its not like nintendo wiiu owners are getting survival horror games in droves (like zombiu proved), except for the letter(lol). Resident evil, dead space, all horror franchises that strugled to sell on nintendo console when were exclusives to it. Maybe there is a market there, but not as big as the ones in the other platafforms.

In the end, i'm not really sure of the point that op is trying to make. Like, tecmo is still making games for it, and at each iteration, the game gos out of japan more and more. You are getting more games. It really that much important if its in the top of sales chart for you?

Except for the fact that Fatal Frame 2 actually had sexualized costumes. PS2 had gothic lolita outfits for Mayu and Mio, while Xbox brought up Bikini outfits for the same 15 and 16 years old charcaters. Marie Rose from DoA5 last round for PS4 another KoeiTecmo game has a Bikini outfit and shes 17 years old.

Nintendo straight up censored the costumes in Fatal Frame 5 for both Yuri and Miu and dowgraded the boob physics too. Why couldnt they raise the age of Miu to 18? because hey they did it before for both protaginsts In the Fatal Frame 2 Wii remake didnt they? Or why had Yuris costume to be censored too, isnt she 18 allready? And why removing the boob physics for all characters? So many unanswered questions.

There are so many ways Nintendo could have handled it better but no they straignt up disrespect Fatal Frame fans and replace them with their own nintendo outfits. Who asked for this?

And yes it hurted sales espacially for a lot of people who didnt ended up having a physical copy avaible. And it doesnt matter how much of an impact it had it is just another reason why this series never should be ended up being with Nintendo.

Even the "censored" versions of Fatal Frame 5 and the Wii remake of Fatal Frame 2 were criticised for the female character's costumes. Including lingerie would have generated very bad PR, especially for a company like Nintendo who due to their "wholesome" image can't get away with as much as a lot of other publishers.

And even putting politics aside, lingerie just destroys the horror atmosphere anyway, it's just silly. Sure, the Nintendo costumes are silly as well, but at least it's something to replace the cut content that's less objectionable. 

As a Fatal Frame fan I wasn't disrespected at all, because I don't buy the games to look at underage girls in lingerie.



fluky-nintendy said:
I never played any of the games myself but it seems like another of those cases of games that are really popular in one platform that by greed and money hatting, these companies sell their soul to a platform that has nothing to do with the genre of games they are offering. Just like ROTR scenario (even though FF is not as popular).

Except the franchise was never popular by any objective standard on any platform.  It's nothing like Tomb Raider that sold competently on multiple other platforms but was dragged to a platform it had never done particularly well on.  This was an unpopular series that was made exclusive because splitting the cost allowed both parties to justify financially the continued development of the series.  Nintendo has a supplemental franchise and KT doesn't have to eat the entirety of the losses every entry inevitably takes.

 

Not to get snippy, but this particular issue has been misrepresented over and over.  Fatal Frame isn't popular and wasn't popular.  Not by any fault of its own in terms of quality mind, but that's just the facts.





Ruler said:

Except for the fact that Fatal Frame 2 actually had sexualized costumes. PS2 had gothic lolita outfits for Mayu and Mio, while Xbox brought up Bikini outfits for the same 15 and 16 years old charcaters. Marie Rose from DoA5 last round for PS4 another KoeiTecmo game has a Bikini outfit and shes 17 years old.

Nintendo straight up censored the costumes in Fatal Frame 5 for both Yuri and Miu and dowgraded the boob physics too. Why couldnt they raise the age of Miu to 18? because hey they did it before for both protaginsts In the Fatal Frame 2 Wii remake didnt they? Or why had Yuris costume to be censored too, isnt she 18 allready? And why removing the boob physics for all characters? So many unanswered questions.

There are so many ways Nintendo could have handled it better but no they straignt up disrespect Fatal Frame fans and replace them with their own nintendo outfits. Who asked for this?

And yes it hurted sales espacially for a lot of people who didnt ended up having a physical copy avaible. And it doesnt matter how much of an impact it had it is just another reason why this series never should be ended up being with Nintendo.

I feel very bad for the people who don't buy the game because the sexy costumes are not in the game. C'mon, it's an horror game, those costumes are painfully silly and totally unnecessary for this game. The fact that people don't buy this game because of this is stupid as fuck. Do people play the game to feel the horror atmosphere and creepiness of the game, or do they play the game to fap with it? There are porn in the internet, you know. I think the normal way to go is criticising K-T for including these outfits on the Japanese version, not criticising Nintendo for erasing them on the Western release. In fact, I'd use the sometimes "forbidden" word on the gaming world, and I'd say it's rather sexist. Portraying an almost naked woman in a game like this, which is totally unnecessary, is just to appeal to the male population with hot chicks. And, well, seeing the reaction of some people to this, I sadly can understand why they did it in the first place... 



RolStoppable said:
The only reason why the series continued is that Nintendo funded it. Otherwise the third game would have been the last.

Unfortunately given the current state of the franchise, this might have been the best thing.  It's hard living up to the second one, but ending with just the third installment would have been a better high note than the more current offerings.