o_O.Q said:
JWeinCom said:
lol calm down hitler being an atheist doesn't make you a terrible person by proxy
No, but it does make for a dishonest attempt to associate atheism with Naziism, and it is blatantly false.
"There is some limited information to suggest Hitler was a pagan"
correct and what was the object of worhip of just about all of the pagan religions? the sun? lol yes but that was at the start of these religions eventually these people came to worship the sun as a metaphor for the intellect of man
Ok. What does this have to do with atheism? Atheism is a rejection of anything, usually supernatural, which does not have evidence backing it. An atheist may or may not worship the intellect of man, but that would be independent of him being an atheist or not.
in other words the old pagan religions became atheistic they ultimately worshiped the intellect of man as god
Ummmmm... no? Some pagans became atheists as they gained knowledge. But, the path goes from Paganism to Christianity as the Romans converted to Christianity. Paganism was generally incorporated into the Catholic Church. Again, atheists do not worship the intellect of man. They do not, as a rule, worship anything.
this is where the story of adam and eve came from
adam and eve originally are ignorant and lack knowledge however after the light bearer or lucifer interacts with them they them gain access to the intelliect or the light
I do not see how this connects to atheism. It seems to show that Judaism and by extension Christianity are based on Paganism, not atheism.
anyway does your admission that hitler was probably a pagan not contradict your claim that he was a christian? does that not tell you something? lol
I didn't say that Hitler was probably a pagan. I said there was limited evidence to suggest he may have been a pagan. In many cases there are pieces of evidence on two sides of an argument. It is possible that Hitler was also influenced by both pagan ideas and christianity.
its amazing to me that you could really believe that hitler was a christian when for one the main symbol associated with him is obviously pagan in nature
the swastika and the winged sun disk  if he was christian why adopt this over the cross?
He actually speaks of this, and part of the reason is aesthetics. At any rate using a symbol does not necessarily endorse that religion. The red cross is an agnostic organization that uses the cross (and crescent) as their symbol. Furthermore, Hitler needed a symbol that would solely be associated with Nazi Germany, so using a symbol associated with Christianity as a whole would not have made sense. Naziism also used Christianity in other contexts. For example, God With Us, on each Nazi uniform.
Of course, you can use this to support the idea that Hitler was a pagan, but it is hardly defining evidence, and it has to be weighed against everything else.
the swastika has a history that is estimated around 12000 years 
and the winged sun disk has also been present through history 
the idea of the super race or the super man is also rooted in the occult these are all things any one can look up if they are interested enough
the connection of these things to the nazi movement in germany and also to hitler is too long to post here
Interesting, but really irrelevant to this. The use of that symbol is some evidence but hardly definitive.
as for the evidence that he is christian well that appears to conflict with the evidence that suggests he's pagan whether one believes one or the other depends on their own discretion
Possibly, but it is also possible that he took ideas from both sources. At any rate, it is clear he was not an atheist, which was the original point I was making.
i will concede that his quotes and his apparent promotion of christianity is interesting and i cannot at the moment explain this but to me to call the nazi movement a christian movement is silly for obvious reasons
I did not say that the Nazi movement was a Christian movement, but that Hitler was most likely a Chrisitian. While there was a lot of use of Christianity to support it, it was by and large, a nationalistic movement.
edit: i'd also add that catholicism was a perversion of the old christian religion because it was combined with pagan beliefs to produce one religion for both groups of people
Then that would perfectly explain why Hitler would be influenced by both Pagan and Christian beliefs, would it not?
this is why the connections between egyptian beliefs and chrisitianity i spoke of earlier exist in the first place
and i'm not saying this to imply that as a result i believe that the nazi movement was christian because that is demonstrably nonsense
I didn't say, or mean to imply, that Naziism was a Christian movement. But, it is blatantly false to claim that Hitler was an atheist, because, as you seem to agree with here, he most certainly was not.
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"n other words the old pagan religions became atheistic they ultimately worshiped the intellect of man as god
Ummmmm... no? Some pagans became atheists as they gained knowledge. "
"Paganism was generally incorporated into the Catholic Church. Again, atheists do not worship the intellect of man. "
" didn't say that Hitler was probably a pagan. I said there was limited evidence to suggest he may have been a pagan. "
well i was very vague before but i suppose i should outline what hitler's aryan movement was about and that should clear things up especially with regards to your comment about banning dawinism and evolutionary ideas
the core of hitlers movement was about evolution... it was about perfecting the human race by limiting reproduction to the group of people that he found to be superior - this is where things like eugenics founded by darwin's brother btw sprang out from
the word aryan in the sense with which it was used then was and i paraphase - super man or super human or perfected man etc etc etc and it came straight from the mystery religions ( one name that comes up is helena blovatsky )
they believed that there have been several past human civilisations on earth that all fell and that the one prior to our civilisation had extraordinary powers such as telepathy
it was believed that through breeding with lower beings that the people of this last civilisation devolved into the more primitive state we possess today and as a result the movement hitler joined and essentially came to lead was about restoring man to that lost state of power
so no the idea that the evidence is "limited" is not at all true where do you think he pulled this idea of super race that was core to his movement from?
what does the idea of eugenics and super men have to do with chrisitianity? now again the christian issues you mentioned are interesting but they are peripheral to the main purpose of his movement
"He actually speaks of this, and part of the reason is aesthetics. "
well that's your opinion i demonstrated that it is a very old symbol used in various cultures in the past so its not just some symbol he came up with while daydreaming
" For example, God With Us, on each Nazi uniform."
your currency also has in god we trust while showing symbology from egypt a civlisation from thousands of years before christiniaty
does this not strike you as odd? how do you know which god is being spoken of?
what i will tell you is that these people speak of god quite frequently but its not the god people tend to believe it is
"it has to be weighed against everything else."
that's an interesting point what is everything else? hitler's movement was primarily about making the super race if you agree with this then whatever the cause of this idea is would be the central aspect to be dealt with
as i said previously christianity is a peripheral issue in this i will however look into the christian elements myself because its definitely interesting but the fact still remains that it is indisputable that his main purpose was not christian in nature
"Interesting, but really irrelevant to this. The use of that symbol is some evidence but hardly definitive."
no it has everything to do with this because it is out of the worship of things like the sun that these religions came from and out of these religions we get ideas like a "super race"
but then again i suppose that depends on your perspective to most people i'm just babbling nonsense about doodles i guess
" it is blatantly false to claim that Hitler was an atheist"
well what i will say is that you should look into the real origins of atheism
atheism didn't start with anyone on this forum or your parents so ultimately atheistic ideas were passed down to you by other people
now as i said through my own research i know for a fact that the priests of the old mystery religions are atheists not in the sense that they absolutely do not believe in god
but that their god is intellect, rationality, the achievements of man that man will ultimately use to dominate nature as god himself
this is where the idea of man being god that is seen so frequently in new age cults comes from
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"well all i can do is tell you to do the research when you do it will show you that initially people worshipped the celestial bodies as gods then with time they came to worship man as god because of his intellect which allows him to dominate nature"
Alright? I still don't have any idea what this has to do with atheism. Atheism is not the worship of man. You can be an atheist and think people suck donkey balls. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any deity.
"i'd like to add btw that these people were a lot more intelligent than we give them credit for "
Smart and knowledgeable are two very different things. Socrates, if he actually existed, was probably smarter than me. I however, am far more knowledgeable, because I have the benefit of thousands of years of human learning.
"lol well i'd strongly disagree with you here but again that's for you to decide"
No, it's not a matter of my opinion or yours. It's a matter of you being wrong. Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity. Nothing more, and nothing less. Opinion on human intellect is irrelevanct to that. Please have a basic grasp of what you're discussing before you're discussing it. Saying that atheist's worship man is as wrong as saying that Christians worship Buddha.
"the core of hitlers movement was about evolution... it was about perfecting the human race by limiting reproduction to the group of people that he found to be superior - this is where things like eugenics founded by darwin's brother btw sprang out from"
Nope nope. To claim that the Nazi movement was about evolution would be as fallacious (actually way more) as to say that it was a Christian movement. Any book supporting Darwin's theory was banned. There are some references to evolution in MeinKamph, but far more refernences to god are made. Hitler specifically attributes his hatred of Jews to God, under the belief that the Jews betrayed Jesus.
Also, I fail to see what this has to do with atheism. Belief or disbelief in evolution has no bearing on whether or not you believe in a god. The Catholic church officially accepts the theory of evolution, so there is no reason that Hitler could not have been a Catholic and believed in evolution.
If you're going to make those sorts of claims, you have to have some evidence to support yourself.
the word aryan in the sense with which it was used then was and i paraphase - super man or super human or perfected man etc etc etc and it came straight from the mystery religions ( one name that comes up is helena blovatsky )
they believed that there have been several past human civilisations on earth that all fell and that the one prior to our civilisation had extraordinary powers such as telepathy
Yeah, I'm totally unfamilar with this. Source?
it was believed that through breeding with lower beings that the people of this last civilisation devolved into the more primitive state we possess today and as a result the movement hitler joined and essentially came to lead was about restoring man to that lost state of power
Do you know how long we've been breeding animals? More than 5,000 years. It wasn't some secret that offspring tend to have the traits of their parents. Similarly, racisim, nationalism, and antisemitism all proceeded Darwin by many centuries. There is a reason Europeans thought they had a right to keep African slaves, or to take the land they wished. Racism and feelings of racial superiority did not come from Darwin.
so no the idea that the evidence is "limited" is not at all true where do you think he pulled this idea of super race that was core to his movement from?
what does the idea of eugenics and super men have to do with chrisitianity? now again the christian issues you mentioned are interesting but they are peripheral to the main purpose of his movement.
Again, racism and racial superiority do not emerge from Darwin. Antisemitism has a long history with Christianity, as Hitler frequently cites himself. The evidence is limited, and the evidence you've provided is non-existant. Do you have a quote? A source?
"well that's your opinion i demonstrated that it is a very old symbol used in various cultures in the past so its not just some symbol he came up with while daydreaming"
No, it is not my opinion. It is Hitler's opinion, which he says in Mein Kampf. The symbol was instituted as the symbol of the Nazi party prior to Hitler's becoming Chariman. He explains why he designed the flag as he did in Mein Kampf.
"your currency also has in god we trust while showing symbology from egypt a civlisation from thousands of years before christiniaty
does this not strike you as odd? how do you know which god is being spoken of?"
Which is precisely my point. You can't claim Christian was a pagan based on one symbol any more than you can claim the US worships Egypt or Hercules based on the sybols they've used.
On a side note, In God We Trust is certainly a reference to the Christian god. It was added to US currency during the Cold War, as a reaction to the atheistic regime in the soviet union.
"no it has everything to do with this because it is out of the worship of things like the sun that these religions came from and out of these religions we get ideas like a "super race"
but then again i suppose that depends on your perspective to most people i'm just babbling nonsense about doodles i guess"
Yes you are, because you're providing no evidence of anything you're saying, and you're not connecting in any way to the idea of atheism, which you have repeatedly shown you do not grasp. I seriously have no idea what worship of the sun has to do with atheism, because I assur you atheists do not worship the sun.
"atheism didn't start with anyone on this forum or your parents so ultimately atheistic ideas were passed down to you by other people"
No. You are showing every time that you use the word atheist that you do not know what it means.
EVERY person was an atheist when they were born. We are born without a belief in god, or even with the ability to have such abstract beliefs. Atheism cannot be passed on, because there is no such thing as an "atheist belief." Atheists do not believe anything on the basis of their atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in any deity. Nobody had to teach me that yahweh was not real (although I did have religious education) any more than they had to teach you that Thor was not real.
And none of this has any bearing on whether or not Hitler was an atheist. You seem to be in sore need of a dictionary if you believe that paganism and atheism are the same thing. Even IF atheism arose from paganism (it didn't) that wouldn't make Hitler an atheist any more than being Jewish would make someone a Muslim (which did come out of Judaism).
"now as i said through my own research i know for a fact that the priests of the old mystery religions are atheists not in the sense that they absolutely do not believe in god
but that their god is intellect, rationality, the achievements of man that man will ultimately use to dominate nature as god himself
this is where the idea of man being god that is seen so frequently in new age cults comes from."
And again, this is not atheism. Atheists might have a high reverence for the intellect of man, or they may not. They could think that mankind is generally stupid and deserves to be wiped out.
To be perfectly clear, atheism is the lack of a belief in a deity. It has nothing to do with the worship of man, the worship of the sun, or the worship of human intellect.
None of this has any bearing on whether or not Hitler was an atheist. You have done nothing to dispute the idea that Hitler was a christin, and have provided no evidence to suggest he was an atheist. Your conflation of paganism with atheism is baffling, and you have repeatedly shown that you do not know what atheism is. If you wish to continue this discussion, start with presenting a clear view of what you think atheism is, because you clearly do not think that atheism is atheism. Also, if you are going to make claims, provide some source for them, because it seems like you're just speaking from your bckground knowledge, which seems sketchy at best.
