They used to pay for just the service.  Ps plus brought in unmatched value.  Tough shit if someone unsubs though.  gaming mustn't be for them because there is no reason to stop subbing if you have the time to play.  

This is why, despite so many people bitching about it, I think online pass is the happy medium. You buy a game new, you get all the online features of the game for free. You buy a game used, you pay a one time fee to get access to all the online features.

It keeps used game sales alive, but at the same time gives publishers a revenue stream from used game sales without having to fight the game retailers for a slice of the pie, or immorally trying to demonise used game buyers as worse than pirates.. It keeps used game prices down, because there now needs to be a difference between the used+online pass price and the new price.

Sony should have kept online pass and left online play free, and allowed one of the PSN+ benefits to be no online pass for any used game for as long as you have PSN+. Adds value to PSN+, but also means non-PSN+ gamers still get to enjoy free online play as long as they buy games new.

Wait so Live was free on PC the whole time?

That shouldn't be a combined service. What if someone doesn't want any of those games? Sony had it right last gen with the free online and optional Plus subscription. I think a basic feature such as online being locked behind a paywall is a scam, no matter who does it.

Yes, in some games like lost planet colonies and blazblue continium shift on pc you can even crossplay against xbox players

I think you need to look up the definition of a scam.  Sony nearly went bust last gen. They should have had this from the start with the ps3. They can easily justify the value and if you don't like any of the games I think you need to game on another platform or not game at all.  So many highly rated and diverse titles.  

Sony are only just turning it around and they sure as hell need the billions ps plus is going to bring them. If Nintendo could pull this off they would.  Speaking of,  they don't exactly offer the best value themselves on certain things either.  Are they a scam too? 

They went bust because they fucked up the PS3's launch, not because they gave people the option to pay for a subscription. I believe Microsoft has never profited from the Xbox division, despite demanding people to pay for online, so it's not like they were a good example to follow. Basically, what you're trying to tell me is profit > ethics. I should have expected as much. Were you one of the people championing Sony's free online last gen?

Nintendo has zero to do with this topic, given that they have never required people to pay for their online services. But please, enlighten me on how they don't offer good value.

That's the point.  Sony would have been a few billion better off if they did on ps3 and Microsoft would have lost billions more from the band.  Investors without their live revenue and potential future revenue might not even let their console exist anymore.  Sony badly need the billions too for obvious reasons and they do it in a way where gamers get amazing value.  Win win. 

As for Nintendo let's not drag this thread off so message me on my wall and we can continue that. 

You're the one that brought Nintendo up, so there is no "us" about it. Frankly, I don't care enough to continue it elsewhere. 

You like paying extra for online? Cool. Good on you. But don't try to act as if people who don't think it's a good deal are insane for thinking so. Not everyone has the same tolerance level.

Yes you lose access to the games if you unsub. But if you get value from the service through playing the games to the extent that you wanted to play them then it is good value and you lose nothing really when you unsub. If you look at the PSN+ "free" games as long term rentals, rather than ownership then the cost/benefit still stacks up extremely well. especially if you have a PS3 and PS4 and / or Vita. The value from getting a bunch of "free" games for 2 consoles each month is ridiculously good. I'm not sure how long I'll keep PSN+. I am accumulating games at a faster rate than I can play them, and the only way I am likely to get through the PSN+ games is if I stop buiying games. But if I don;t get through the games I already have from PSN+, then I neeed to keep the sub in order to play them, which means I accumulate more games. There hasn't been a month yet when at least one of the games (and usually 2 or 3) available for PS3 or 4 hasn't been a game I wanted. I think The Order will have to be my last game purchase for a few months so that I can work through my PSN+ catalog.