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Forums - Politics Discussion - Vaccination mediatic blitz

Scoobes said:
Teeqoz said:


That's how many children per thousand are diagnosed with autism. As you can see, there's a more than 200% increase since 2000. Now I don't know why that is, but it has to be something.

You may want to check how the diagnosis of autism has changed over the years.

Plus, as with anything like this, link?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_autism

I figured the "definition" of autism would've changed, thus causing more people to be diagnosed with it. However it seems odd to me that It'd account for such a massive increase, but as I said, it has to be something. Or maybe I'm wrong, and that all of the increase is caused by changes in definition of autism. It may be some of the other thiousands of chemicals that have been taken into daily use in the past decades, but writing this all off as just a change in diagnostics is kinda reckless imo.



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Teeqoz said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_autism

I figured the "definition" of autism would've changed, thus causing more people to be diagnosed with it. However it seems odd to me that It'd account for such a massive increase, but as I said, it has to be something. Or maybe I'm wrong, and that all of the increase is caused by changes in definition of autism. It may be some of the other thiousands of chemicals that have been taken into daily use in the past decades, but writing this all off as just a change in diagnostics is kinda reckless imo.

It's not necessarily just that we've expanded the definition (well, spectrum), but that it's something better understood and actively searched for in kids now. Go back 30 - 40 years and barley anyone even knew what autism was, we just labeled kids that didn't fit in "weird" or "retarded" and didn't take the time to consider why they acted how they did, or if we could help. Heck, it's 2015 and many people still assume that anyone with autism must be inherently stupid...

There may very well be outside factors at play, but the wider definition, better understanding and active search for symptoms seem like more plausible explanations. Especially since the increase in autism diagnoses lines up with the decrease in mental retardation prevalence.

This looks scary:

This on the other hand suggests we simply better understand what we're diagnosing:

Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, but it's a logical conclusion that the two are related. The topic will no doubt continue to be researched to death for years to come though, so we'll see.

(Sorry if i come across as a bit blunt in this post, autism is a topic i can get a bit touchy about).



^

I see that more people have understood the possibility of diagnostics; I happen to work with kids for the past 1.5 years where many of them are in the autism spectrum, Aspberger is also common in this group. Almost all of them had other diagnosis to begin with; usually tied more directly into psychiatri, things such as anxiety, isolating behavior and even outbursts and fits of rage are often interpreted in many different ways.

It's the same with ADD; it is the go-to label for the kids that parents and/or teacher can't or don't want to handle, there is gross misuse of the term here in Scandinavia.



There is a very, very strong correlation between the absence of vaccination on a person and the people who get measles, but absolutely no correlation between people that have been subject of vaccination and autism. No further data is needed. What would really be interesting would be to understand is why people are still talking about this.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

SamuelRSmith said:
Burek said:

You know what is good about mandatory vaccinations? People don't have to guess if the person is vaccinated and if the facility is disease-free. 

But, maybe your idea is valid. I propose we let people decide, and those who choose not to vaccinate can have a yellow band on their sleeve. 


Those loons out there who are kicking up a fuss over this aren't going to submit and get their kids vaccinated. "Mandating" it won't make much difference in that regard.

It's not really that difficult. Where kids are most at risk, ie, when the kids are closest to each other and playing around, could easily be controlled. Schools, can't sign up without medical papers. Play areas, membership only, have to provide evidence to get membership.

Just like how the vegetarian society exists to certify restaurants and the like, a "vaccine" society could exist to certify that establishments have in place proper protocols. All you need to do then look for a little "V", or whatever.

"Proving" your vaccination to the establishment is also fairly easy, given modern technology. A smartphone app provided by health insurers could verify your vaccinations. Health insurers would benefit from providing said app, because increased vaccinations bring down their costs.

Or, instead of millions of dollars to appease the anti-science crowd, you just force them to get vaccinated.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Mummelmann said:

^

I see that more people have understood the possibility of diagnostics; I happen to work with kids for the past 1.5 years where many of them are in the autism spectrum, Aspberger is also common in this group. Almost all of them had other diagnosis to begin with; usually tied more directly into psychiatri, things such as anxiety, isolating behavior and even outbursts and fits of rage are often interpreted in many different ways.

It's the same with ADD; it is the go-to label for the kids that parents and/or teacher can't or don't want to handle, there is gross misuse of the term here in Scandinavia.

Yeah, it once was that you just had the weird kid (i was one of those, mind, though i never had any diagnosis of anything), and that was the end of it. Now everything has to be categorized. This is not a bad thing in itself, but then it leads people to think there is an "epidemic" of this or that disorder.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

padib said:

 

Mr Khan said:

Or, instead of millions of dollars to appease the anti-science crowd, you just force them to get vaccinated.

I think this is part of the issue. Part of the revolt about this is that the cases of measles are being blown out of proportion and lead into the forced vaccination of people. So it seems disproportionate and the truther video I posted is trying to show us a pernicious trend.

This is also happening at the same time as increased militarisation of the police force in the United States. So it all points to a direction of more control over people, and so the concern is that over time companies may want to force vaccines on people that are not proven safe or that are possibly harmful while people are forced to take them. I'm not saying it's the case here but that seems to be the real trend.

Your multi-quote seems to be screwing with my ability to quote you.

The measles outbreak is not a "bad" problem in the grand scheme of things, i'll grant, but the trick of all of this is that this suffering was entirely preventable but for a few people who think that they know better. If there is a revolt, it's part of the long luddite reaction against modernity, sprouting up in odd crevices of society (interestingly, anti-vax was a buggaboo of the American Left until recently, when the Republicans are picking it up as part of their recent anti-government streak, like Tom Thillis and his "you don't have to wash your hands" weirdness). It's the revolt of romanticism against enlightenment, where the affective concept of natural purity clashes with biology and chemistry and other sciences. What you see here is a counterrevolution, as people get fed up with anti-vaxxer silliness and move to crush it.

The other end of your argument is a non-starter. In a world of pure theory your thought on a slippery slope of people being forced to take drugs is correct, but we don't live in a world of theory. In the real world, we have vaccines, tried, tested, and proven. People are rejecting these vaccines. Nobody is talking about forcing some experimental drug on people, and stamping out of anti-vax nonsense is not going to lead to that. As a macro concept, the slippery slope is a fallacy.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

padib said:
Mr Khan said:

Your multi-quote seems to be screwing with my ability to quote you.

The measles outbreak is not a "bad" problem in the grand scheme of things, i'll grant, but the trick of all of this is that this suffering was entirely preventable but for a few people who think that they know better. If there is a revolt, it's part of the long luddite reaction against modernity, sprouting up in odd crevices of society (interestingly, anti-vax was a buggaboo of the American Left until recently, when the Republicans are picking it up as part of their recent anti-government streak, like Tom Thillis and his "you don't have to wash your hands" weirdness). It's the revolt of romanticism against enlightenment, where the affective concept of natural purity clashes with biology and chemistry and other sciences. What you see here is a counterrevolution, as people get fed up with anti-vaxxer silliness and move to crush it.

The other end of your argument is a non-starter. In a world of pure theory your thought on a slippery slope of people being forced to take drugs is correct, but we don't live in a world of theory. In the real world, we have vaccines, tried, tested, and proven. People are rejecting these vaccines. Nobody is talking about forcing some experimental drug on people, and stamping out of anti-vax nonsense is not going to lead to that. As a macro concept, the slippery slope is a fallacy.

You're going too abstract. Do you agree that it's a possibility, in light of what we know of the existence of mediatic propaganda and increasing population control? It may not have a precedent yet, but it's a possibility.

Take GMOs for example. "Oh, those are fine" the powers will tell us. Meantime in Europe they are banned.

This is rapidly veering into conspiracy theorist territory. GMOs *are* fine, perfectly healthy as far as eating goes (what they can do to other crops is a possibility, the real controversy about GMOs is more a dispute about farmers and intellectual property and has little to do with public health). Concerns of population control are specious at best.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
padib said:

You're going too abstract. Do you agree that it's a possibility, in light of what we know of the existence of mediatic propaganda and increasing population control? It may not have a precedent yet, but it's a possibility.

Take GMOs for example. "Oh, those are fine" the powers will tell us. Meantime in Europe they are banned.

This is rapidly veering into conspiracy theorist territory. GMOs *are* fine, perfectly healthy as far as eating goes (what they can do to other crops is a possibility, the real controversy about GMOs is more a dispute about farmers and intellectual property and has little to do with public health). Concerns of population control are specious at best.

Aye, Monsanto is a disgusting company.



padib said:
Mr Khan said:

This is rapidly veering into conspiracy theorist territory. GMOs *are* fine, perfectly healthy as far as eating goes (what they can do to other crops is a possibility, the real controversy about GMOs is more a dispute about farmers and intellectual property and has little to do with public health). Concerns of population control are specious at best.

Not conspiracy, they are banned in Europe for a reason. They haven't been properly tested over generational effects which were observed on species with shorter generations.

You said my concept was purely theoretical and was thus a fallacy. I just showed you how that's untrue and too theoretical a thought in itself, distanced from true issues of reality, that we are administered or fed things which are not free of possible biological effects. GMOs are a great example of that.

That's actually incorrect, there are a number of approved GMO's in Europe.  As of Sept 2014, 49 GMO's have been authorized.  So, your concept is a fallacy, because your statement is false.

Beyond that, every country has different testing standards.