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Forums - General - Ben Stein to take on Darwinism on April 18

That Guy said:
Yeah right now ID is more of a "spin" that you can put on science more than an alternative explanation of it.

I think its called the anthropic principle. "The earth and the universe has been fine tuned to allow for our existence, so therefore it must have been designed that way since there is no way for it to be random." It is true that everything in the universe came about in a way that allows for our existence, but depending on whether or not you subscribe to the anthropic principle, then you can arrive at a couple different conclusions.

The anthropic principle is fine, so long as "fine tuned for life" means "bloody leathal to all known forms of life in 99.99999999% of the cosmos," by which account New York City has been supremely fine tuned for the existence of elephants.



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The_vagabond7 said:

Dear god, I'm watching a video of Ben Stein being interviewed about the movie, and he is completely off his rocker. He's claiming that "darwinism" (what he calls evolution) is supposed to explain mutations, natural selection and GRAVITY. And then complaining that "darwinists" can't explain where GRAVITY came from or why planets arbit the sun.... (expletive coming) HOLY FUCK.

This is the guy you want educating you about science? This is freaking ridiculous.

 


Ah, good. You got the video to display. Check out the rest of his anti-creationist videos (the Stein vids are just 2 of 22 - so far). While the tone of the videos is a bit hostile for my tastes (though Ben was asking for it, literally) to make it good educational material, there are some great takedowns of creationist and ID nonsense.



Here's a satisfying critique of ID and Ben Stein by John Derbyshire, a well known conservative columinst:

 http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ZGYwMzdjOWRmNGRhOWQ4MTQyZDMxNjNhYTU1YTE5Njk=

A Blood Libel on Our Civilization
Can I expell Expelled?

By John Derbyshire

What on earth has happened to Ben Stein? He and I go back a long way. No, I’ve never met the guy. Back in the 1970s, though, when The American Spectator was in its broadsheet format, I would always turn first to Ben Stein’s diary, which appeared in every issue. He was funny and clever and worldly in a way I liked a lot. The very few times I’ve caught him on-screen, he seems to have had a nice line in deadpan self-deprecation, also something I like. Though I’ve never met him, I know people who know him, and they all speak well of him. Larry Kudlow, whose opinion is worth a dozen average opinions on any topic, thinks the world of Ben.

So what’s going on here with this stupid Expelled movie? No, I haven’t seen the dang thing. I’ve been reading about it steadily for weeks now though, both pro (including the pieces by David Klinghoffer and Dave Berg on National Review Online) and con, and I can’t believe it would yield up many surprises on an actual viewing. It’s pretty plain that the thing is creationist porn, propaganda for ignorance and obscurantism. How could a guy like this do a thing like that?

I turned over some possibilities, but decisively rejected them all. The first thing that came to mind was Saudi money. Half of the evils and absurdities in our society seem to have a Saudi prince behind them somewhere, and the Wahhabists are, like all fundamentalist Muslims, committed creationists. This doesn’t hold water, though. For one thing, Stein is Jewish. For another, he is rich, and doesn’t need the money. And for another, the stills and clips I have seen are from a low-budget production. Saudi financing would surely at least have come up with some decent computer graphics. No, Ben Stein is no crook. He must then be foolish; and that’s sad, because I now think less of a guy I once admired, and whom my friends admire. Life, it’s just one darn bubble bursting after another.

To return to the matter of computer graphics for a moment, it seems that the producers of Expelled, rather than go to the trouble and expense of making their own, may have just stolen some. (The creationists have posted a defense here. There will probably be a lawsuit under way, which I shall report back on. Oh, and as I write this, I see a Reuters report that our defenders of faith and morality may have stolen some music too. How many more shoes will drop, I wonder?) It is at any rate clear that they engaged in much deception with the subjects they interviewed for the movie, many of whom are complaining loudly. This, together with much, much else about the movie, can be read about on the Expelled Exposed website put up by the National Center for Science Education, which I urge all interested readers to explore.

These dishonesties do not surprise me. When talking about the creationists to people who don’t follow these controversies closely, I have found that the hardest thing to get across is the shifty, low-cunning aspect of the whole modern creationist enterprise. Individual creationists can be very nice people, though they get nicer the further away they are from the full-time core enterprise of modern creationism at the Discovery Institute. The enterprise as a whole, however, really doesn’t smell good. You notice this when you’re around it a lot. I shall give some more examples in a minute; but what accounts for all this dishonesty and misrepresentation?

My own theory is that the creationists have been morally corrupted by the constant effort of pretending not to be what they are. What they are, as is amply documented, is a pressure group for religious teaching in public schools.

Now, there is nothing wrong with that. We are a nation of pressure groups, and one more would hardly notice. However, since parents who want their kids religiously educated already have plenty of private and parochial schools to choose from (half the kids on my street have attended parochial school), as well as the option of home schooling, now very well organized and supported (and heartily approved of by me: I just wish I knew how they find the time); and since current jurisprudence, how correctly I am not competent to say, regards tax-funded religious instruction as unconstitutional; creationists are a pressure group without hope, if they campaign openly for the thing they want.

Understanding this, the creationists took the morally fatal decision to campaign clandestinely. They overhauled creationism as “intelligent design,” roped in a handful of eccentric non-Christian cranks keen for a well-funded vehicle to help them push their own flat-earth theories, and set about presenting themselves to the public as “alternative science" engaged in a “controversy” with a closed-minded, reactionary “science establishment” fearful of new ideas. (Ignoring the fact that without a constant supply of new ideas, there would be nothing for scientists to do.) Nothing to do with religion at all!

I think this willful act of deception has corrupted creationism irredeemably. The old Biblical creationists were, in my opinion, wrong-headed, but they were mostly honest people. The “intelligent design” crowd lean more in the other direction. Hence the dishonesty and sheer nastiness, even down to plain bad manners, that you keep encountering in ID circles. It’s by no means all of them, but it’s enough to corrupt and poison the creationist enterprise, which might otherwise have added something worthwhile to our national life, if only by way of entertainment value.

This dishonesty showed up very soon after the creationists decided to don the mask of “alternative science” in the 1990s. A key episode was the Kunming conference of June 1999. In very brief — you can read the full story in Forrest and Gross’s Creationisms Trojan Horse (“A bad book, a very bad book,” shuddered the Discovery Institute’s Bruce Chapman when he saw it on my desk, like a vampire spotting a clove of garlic), pp.56-66 — there is a very interesting bed of extremely old fossils near Kunming, in southern China. Paul Chien, a little-known creationist of Chinese ancestry from San Francisco, acted as a front man for the Discovery Institute to organize a conference in Kunming, bringing in professional paleontologists from China and abroad, but without telling them of the Discovery Institute’s involvement. The aim was “to produce and then to promote a book containing the conference papers of [creationist] members immediately juxtaposed to those written by respected scientists in the relevant fields.” (Forrest & Gross, their italics.) When the real paleontologists found out what was going on, and how they had been brought across China, or around the world, they were not pleased. Embarrassing scenes followed. No book ever appeared.


Examples can be multiplied. The witty and mild-mannered federal Judge Jones, who presided over the 2005 Kitzmiller trial in Dover, Pa., felt moved to note that: “The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.” The response of the Discovery Institute was to launch sneering, slanderous attacks on the professionalism and competence of Judge Jones (a church-going conservative Republican appointed by President George W. Bush).

So it goes with the stalwart defenders of truth and morality over at the Discovery Institute. So it goes with Ben Stein, apparently, since he has signed up with these mountebanks, for reasons that remain mysterious to me. The misrepresentations in Expelled are far too numerous for me to list here, and the task is unnecessary since others have done it. The aforementioned Expelled Exposed website is a great resource. Biologist P. Z. Myers, in a less organized way, has been pointing up the errors and deceptions in Expelled since the wretched thing hove into view. (Here he links to a whole stack of reviews, including a couple of positives.) Other science-literate bloggers have been weighing in, often very angrily. One of my favorite comments came from “Pixy Misa” (Andrew Mazels) who correctly called Ben Stein's accusing Darwin of responsibility for the Holocaust “a blood libel on science.”

I would actually go further than that, to something like “a blood libel on Western Civilization.” One of the most-quoted remarks by one conservative writer about another was Evelyn Waugh's on Kipling. It bears quoting again.

[Kipling] was a conservative in the sense that he believed civilization to be something laboriously achieved which was only precariously defended. He wanted to see the defences fully manned and he hated the liberals because he thought them gullible and feeble, believing in the easy perfectibility of man and ready to abandon the work of centuries for sentimental qualms.

Western civilization has many glories. There are the legacies of the ancients, in literature and thought. There are the late-medieval cathedrals, those huge miracles of stone, statuary, and spiritual devotion. There is painting, music, the orderly cityscapes of Renaissance Italy, the peaceful, self-governed townships of old New England and the Frontier, the steel marvels of the early industrial revolution, our parliaments and courts of law, our great universities with their spirit of restless inquiry.

And there is science, perhaps the greatest of all our achievements, because nowhere else on earth did it appear. China, India, the Muslim world, all had fine cities and systems of law, architecture and painting, poetry and prose, religion and philosophy. None of them ever accomplished what began in northwest Europe in the later 17th century, though: a scientific revolution. Thoughtful men and women came together in learned societies to compare notes on their observations of the natural world, to test their ideas in experiments, and in reasoned argument against the ideas of others, and to publish their results in learned journals. A body of common knowledge gradually accumulated. Patterns were observed, laws discerned and stated.

If I write with more feeling than usual here it is because I have just shipped off a review to an editor (for another magazine) of Gino Segrè’s new book about the history of quantum mechanics. It’s a good, if not very remarkable, book giving pen-portraits of the great players in physics during the 1920s and 1930s, and of their meetings and disagreements. Segrè, a particle physicist himself, who has been around for a while, knew some of these people personally, and of course heard many anecdotes from their intellectual descendants. It's a “warm” book, full of feeling for the scientists and their magnificent enterprise, struggling with some of the most difficult problems the human intellect has ever confronted, striving with all their powers to understand what can barely be understood.

Gino Segrè’s book — and, of course, hundreds like it (I have, ahem, dabbled myself) brings to us a feeling for what the scientific endeavor is like, and how painfully its triumphs are won, with what sweat and tears. Our scientific theories are the crowning adornments of our civilization, towering monuments of intellectual effort, built from untold millions of hours of observation, measurement, classification, discussion, and deliberation. This is quite apart from their wonderful utility — from the light, heat, and mobility they give us, the drugs and the gadgets and the media. (A “thank you” wouldn’t go amiss.) Simply as intellectual constructs, our well-established scientific theories are awe-inspiring.

And now here is Ben Stein, sneering and scoffing at Darwin, a man who spent decades observing and pondering the natural world — that world Stein glimpses through the window of his automobile now and then, when he’s not chattering into his cell phone. Stein claims to be doing it in the name of an alternative theory of the origin of species: Yet no such alternative theory has ever been presented, nor is one presented in the movie, nor even hinted at. There is only a gaggle of fools and fraudsters, gaping and pointing like Apaches on seeing their first locomotive: “Look! It moves! There must be a ghost inside making it move!”

The “intelligent design” hoax is not merely non-science, nor even merely anti-science; it is anti-civilization. It is an appeal to barbarism, to the sensibilities of those Apaches, made by people who lack the imaginative power to know the horrors of true barbarism. (A thing that cannot be said of Darwin. See Chapter X of Voyage of the Beagle.)

And yes: When our greatest achievements are blamed for our greatest moral failures, that is a blood libel against Western civilization itself. What next, Ben? Johann Sebastian Bach ran a slave-trading enterprise on the side? Kepler started the Thirty Years War? Tolstoy instigated the Kishinev Pogrom? Dante was a bag-man for the Golden Horde? Why not go smash a few windows in Chartres Cathedral, Ben? Break wind in a chamber-music concert? (I confess - I have broken wind in a chamber music concert - misterd) Splash some red paint around in the Uffizi? Which other of our civilizational achievements would you like to sneer at? What else from what Waugh called “the work of centuries” would you like to “abandon … for sentimental qualms”? You call yourself a conservative? Feugh!

For shame, Ben Stein, for shame. Stand up for your civilization, man! and all its glories. The barbarians are at the gate, as they always have been. Come man the defenses with us, leaving the liars and fools to their lies and folly.



That is a very worthless article as it spews nothing but opinion and anger.

My favorite line "No, I haven’t seen the dang thing"

I started to go threw and name all the fallacies in there line by line but there are too many. His biggest being Hasty Generalization, Ad Hominem, and Ad Populum.

Other Notabe ones

Faulty Use of Authority
Post Hoc
False Analogy
Slippery Slope
Straw Man
Non Sequitur
Faulty Emotional Appeals

I could careless whether or not he is right, he is on a rant and offers nothing constructive.



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.


ioi + 1

I don't really see that article as a reasoned logical refutation of the movie, it is just what you said, an emotional rant. It's more of a rebuke than a refutation. And while from a logical standpoint he may have used a number of faulty arguments, it doesn't change the fact that he's right, overall. That movie is an afront to science and reason, by being propaganda clothing itself in the name of science and reason.

Expelledexposed.com is a complete refutation (with a few rebukes thrown in).



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

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It is a response prompted by the film, but the criticism is aimed squarely at the leaders of the ID movement, so watching the film and dismantling it is unnecessary (especially since Expelled Exposed does such an excellent job of doing so already).



I am a firm disbeliever in darwinism because of the flaws in the theory. For example, what is "life"? what makes a bunch of carbon-based molecules "alive"? and why can't any scientific method we know of make something "alive", even if all the correct materials are present and in the correct molecular sequence? and why, if evolution is true, does anything reproduce? I mean, the resources that are devoted toward reproducing (and caring for young in the case of some "higher-level" animals) could be much better expended by, for example, gathering food or whatever. (And btw, the notion of an entire species having a "consciousness", which is what would be required to allow an evolved reproduction system, is pure BS) Also, the First Law of Thermodynamics is bothersome if evolution is true. (ie. if you can't create or destroy mass-energy, how is it that ANY mass-energy exists?) Based on these and some other flaws in the theory of evolution, I am absolutely convinced that it is NOT true. I'm not 100% sure what IS true, but I am sure that evolution is not.



Not trying to be a fanboy. Of course, it's hard when you own the best console eve... dang it

Dear god, I think Retrasado just made my brain bleed. What is life? Why can't we just make it? And what the hell does evolution have to do with the creation of mass or energy? An entire species sharing a single conciousness? It's more beneficial to a species to gather food than to freaking reproduce? You don't even seem to know what evolution is! And It almost seems like a joke post mocking that video of ben stein asking why evolution can't explain where gravity came from. Go read a high school text book on evolution then come back. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is just inane. You are a firm disbeliever in darwinism (which doesn't exist) because you don't even know what evolution is. The fact that you even use the term darwinism is extremely telling. The only people that refer to evolution as "darwinism" are religious fundamentalists.

On a completely different topic, here is a quick rundown of behe's involvement in the dover trial, and what happened as a result. It's very interesting, and sums up why ID is not respected as a scientific theory.

In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, the first direct challenge brought in United States federal courts to an attempt to mandate the teaching of intelligent design on First Amendment grounds, Behe was called as a primary witness for the defense, and asked to support the idea that intelligent design was legitimate science. Behe's critics have pointed to a number of key exchanges that they say further undermine his statements about irreducible complexity and intelligent design. Under cross examination, Behe conceded that "there are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design supported by pertinent experiments or calculations which provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred".[31] During this testimony Behe conceded that the definition of 'theory' as he applied it to intelligent design was so loose that astrology would qualify as a theory by definition as well.[32] Also while under oath, Behe admitted that his simulation modelling of evolution with Snoke had in fact shown that complex biochemical systems requiring multiple interacting parts for the system to function and requiring multiple, consecutive and unpreserved mutations to be fixed in a population could evolve within 20,000 years, even if the parameters of the simulation were rigged to make that outcome as unlikely as possible.[33] [34]

John E. Jones III, the judge of the case, in his final ruling relied heavily upon Behe's testimony for the defense in his judgment for the plaintiffs, citing:

* "Consider, to illustrate, that Professor Behe remarkably and unmistakably claims that the plausibility of the argument for ID depends upon the extent to which one believes in the existence of God."[5]
* "As no evidence in the record indicates that any other scientific proposition's validity rests on belief in God, nor is the Court aware of any such scientific propositions, Professor Behe's assertion constitutes substantial evidence that in his view, as is commensurate with other prominent ID leaders, ID is a religious and not a scientific proposition."[5]
* "First, defense expert Professor Fuller agreed that ID aspires to "change the ground rules" of science and lead defense expert Professor Behe admitted that his broadened definition of science, which encompasses ID, would also embrace astrology. Moreover, defense expert Professor Minnich acknowledged that for ID to be considered science, the ground rules of science have to be broadened to allow consideration of supernatural forces."[6]
* "What is more, defense experts concede that ID is not a theory as that term is defined by the NAS and admit that ID is at best "fringe science" which has achieved no acceptance in the scientific community."[7]
* "We therefore find that Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large."[8]
* "ID proponents primarily argue for design through negative arguments against evolution, as illustrated by Professor Behe’s argument that “irreducibly complex” systems cannot be produced through Darwinian, or any natural, mechanisms. However, … arguments against evolution are not arguments for design. Expert testimony revealed that just because scientists cannot explain today how biological systems evolved does not mean that they cannot, and will not, be able to explain them tomorrow. As Dr. Padian aptly noted, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”… Irreducible complexity is a negative argument against evolution, not proof of design, a point conceded by defense expert Professor Minnich."[35]
* "Professor Behe’s concept of irreducible complexity depends on ignoring ways in which evolution is known to occur. Although Professor Behe is adamant in his definition of irreducible complexity when he says a precursor “missing a part is by definition nonfunctional,” what he obviously means is that it will not function in the same way the system functions when all the parts are present. For example in the case of the bacterial flagellum, removal of a part may prevent it from acting as a rotary motor. However, Professor Behe excludes, by definition, the possibility that a precursor to the bacterial flagellum functioned not as a rotary motor, but in some other way, for example as a secretory system."[36]
* "Professor Behe has applied the concept of irreducible complexity to only a few select systems: (1) the bacterial flagellum; (2) the blood-clotting cascade; and (3) the immune system. Contrary to Professor Behe’s assertions with respect to these few biochemical systems among the myriad existing in nature, however, Dr. Miller presented evidence, based upon peer-reviewed studies, that they are not in fact irreducibly complex."[37]
* "...proponents assert that they refuse to propose hypotheses on the designer’s identity, do not propose a mechanism, and the designer, he/she/it/they, has never been seen. ...



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Retrasado said:

1) what is "life"? what makes a bunch of carbon-based molecules "alive"?

2) why can't any scientific method we know of make something "alive", even if all the correct materials are present and in the correct molecular sequence?

3) why, if evolution is true, does anything reproduce? I mean, the resources that are devoted toward reproducing (and caring for young in the case of some "higher-level" animals) could be much better expended by, for example, gathering food or whatever. (And btw, the notion of an entire species having a "consciousness", which is what would be required to allow an evolved reproduction system, is pure BS)

4) Also, the First Law of Thermodynamics is bothersome if evolution is true. (ie. if you can't create or destroy mass-energy, how is it that ANY mass-energy exists?) Based on these and some other flaws in the theory of evolution, I am absolutely convinced that it is NOT true.

5) I'm not 100% sure what IS true, but I am sure that evolution is not.


 I've broken your post up into parts for a responce:

1) A citing from wikipedia should suffice here, if this doesn't cover it I or someone else would be glad to help you grasp it better:

Conventional definition: Often scientists say that life is a characteristic of organisms that exhibit the following phenomena:

  1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.
  2. Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
  3. Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
  4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
  5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
  6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
  7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.

2) Creating life from no life is not evolution, and thus doesn't apply to this discussion. You're thinking of abiogensis.

3) A species that doesn't expend the energy to reproduce dies out after one generation and thus only species with a strong drive to reproduce will survive many generations.  Quite simple really.

4) Evolution doesn't try to explain the existance of mass or energy, you have the wrong theory and as such it doesn't apply.

5) Your reasons for declaring evolution false are ill-concieved, you can choose to educate yourself and re-examine the situation or you can stick to your current view of evolution which is born out of ignorance of what it actually is. Last point I will make is that nobody is 100% sure what is correct but I think if you take the time to learn about evolution and what it is saying you will find it is far and away the most reasonable scientific explaination.

 

 



To Each Man, Responsibility

sqrl is nicer than I am. He actually takes time to explain why you're wrong, rather than just slapping his forehead in shock and disgust. I really need to work on that. It's just that I get soooo tired of hearing inane grossly ignorant assessments of evolution by people that are either fooled into thinking that they are educated on the matter, or just assume that they must be. I don't know how many times I've heard people try to bring thermodynamics or abiogenesis into a debate about evolution. The vast vast majority of the debate about evolution is the result of gross negligent and usually willfull ignorance. You're a better person than I sqrl for at least dignifying such inanity with an explanation.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.