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Forums - General Discussion - Ben Stein to take on Darwinism on April 18

Kasz216 on 08 March 2008
redspear said:
Kasz216 said:

Lions and Tigers can have fertile offspring, eh? I gotta see if I can find a picture of that. Bet it's cute looking.

I always thought the Liger was just something made up in the fevered minds of the Japanese.

Neat study too by the way.


Edit: Huh weird. They're bigger then either of their parents... and are only made by Male lions and female Tigers... is it not possible to work the other way? That's called a Tigon... weird.

Just a correction a Tigon comes from a Female Lion and a Male Tiger. A Liger is the largest Cat on earth and is from a Male Lion and a Female Tiger.

A Liger

 

Here is a video

 

 

 


That's what i said. Just the wierd paragraphs due to the edit made it look funny.  The "That's called a Tigon" thing was in reference to the opposite of the Liger which is the largest etc etc.

 



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Final-Fan on 08 March 2008

Some common sense is logically sound (based on deductive reasoning) and some is not (based on (usually strong) inductive reasoning).

As for your strict-construction-based definition of "common sense", I think that you are using the wrong sense of common and sense and are arriving at the wrong definition. Webster's defines the phrase as "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts". This would fit a definition deriving from what a common person (i.e. not an expert) or a person with common knowledge (again, not an expert) would conclude is reasonable, or makes sense, to believe based on what he observes in everyday occurrence. "Horse sense" is a synonym for "common sense" -- even a horse knows these basic things.



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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 08 March 2008
kenzomatic said:
You are seperating common sense and logic I am not saying they are inseparable but rather nonexclusive terms.

I think you have trouble reading.
kenzomatic said:
I Agree with you. So you know I am very prone to play devils advocate. Though I do not enjoy being attacked for it.

Blocking "common sense" is one thing but blocking logic is not good.
But surely then you expect the positions you hold and the arguments you present to be attacked?  Kasz216 has not engaged in personal attacks beyond attacking your arguments and positions so far as I have seen. 

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

kenzomatic on 08 March 2008
Final-Fan said:
kenzomatic said:
You are seperating common sense and logic I am not saying they are inseparable but rather nonexclusive terms.

I think you have trouble reading.
kenzomatic said:
I Agree with you. So you know I am very prone to play devils advocate. Though I do not enjoy being attacked for it.

Blocking "common sense" is one thing but blocking logic is not good.
But surely then you expect the positions you hold and the arguments you present to be attacked?  Kasz216 has not engaged in personal attacks beyond attacking your arguments and positions so far as I have seen. 

Yes I do expect the argument to be attacked.

And I was reffering back to a previous argument me and him had in which I was attacked.

Also I tend to reflect how others act, if your curdious and understanding I'll be curdious and understand, if you refuse to budge one inch so will I.

Kasz216 - is extremmly smart but he refuses to back down or give in any.

Edit: You find out alot about people when you argue with them and alot about their motives. The Common Sense remark was bait.



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.

ioi + 1
Final-Fan on 08 March 2008
timmytomthegreat said:
Sqrl said:
timmytomthegreat said:
Sqrl said:
kazadoom said:
are you reading what you are writing? This is nonsense, it takes more faith to believe this then creation. There are so many ifs and holes in what you are saying it is crazy. You keep talking about adaptation, like bears turning white in the snow, and people getting hairier in colder climates. That is not evolution, because they are still bears, and they are still humans. There is NO evidence that species changed from one species to another on this planet.
Really?  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12286206/
Really?  http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2006/0417ethiopian.asp
Good find. I just wish the article I linked had bothered to provide an update on the matter.

The position you're taking stills leaves the conundrum that you have to admit god doesn't exist to hold the position if you wish not to be a hypocrite.

How you ask?

Glad you asked, let me explain: If your position is that the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence then God himself fails this test and thus by this logic doesn't exist.

As I've already stated in this thread the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence and the position you and Kaza hold is untennable logically speaking.

If your best proof that evolution is incorrect is that they've only proven it to be true of traits within a species then you have a fairly weak argument considering that basic logic can lead anyone to deduce that even large quantities of small changes over time can cause two different populations to diverge significantly enough to become something else. Really that process doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to understand, but somehow your contention is that because nobody on a Video Game website can show you proof that it happened you would proclaim that it never can?
I have evidence for God's existence. Read the book The Case For Christ and then we can talk.

Also there is a proof for the existence of God, that to my knowledge no atheist can dis prove, called The Transcendental Arguement for the Existence of God.

http://www.carm.org/atheism/transcendental_outline.htm

http://www.bellevuechristian.org/faculty/dribera/htdocs/PDFs/Apol_Bahnsen_Stein_Debate_Transcript.pdf
This is a bit belated, but here goes: 

1. If you have evidence to present, please do so.  It's unreasonable to ask everyone else to go out and buy all the same Christian apologetics that you are going to use. 

2. That has a lot of rebuttals that look good -- at least at a glance -- but here's one they don't cover.  The words are my own but none of the criticism rebuttals are on point to it:  "Logic as we know it was formulated by human minds.  Logical absolutes are a reflection of reality, i.e. the physical universe which has physical absolutes.  Whatever the cause of the universe, God or no, these physical absolutes exist, from which spring the logical absolutes (human minds, experiencing and observing the physical absolutes, formulated logical absolutes to match)."

3. I quickly read that debate just now and I don't know why you seem to think it is strong support for your position.  It seems to me that both sides gave good arguments, although Dr. Bahnsen spent too much time IMO attacking moral relativism instead of backing up his position and Dr. Stein did not really answer the transcentental argument unless I overlooked something.  There wasn't really a clear winner at first glance, and in any case those two men on that day were not the be-all end-all of that debate (obviously). 

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Kasz216 on 08 March 2008
kenzomatic said:
Final-Fan said:
kenzomatic said:
You are seperating common sense and logic I am not saying they are inseparable but rather nonexclusive terms.

I think you have trouble reading.
kenzomatic said:
I Agree with you. So you know I am very prone to play devils advocate. Though I do not enjoy being attacked for it.

Blocking "common sense" is one thing but blocking logic is not good.
But surely then you expect the positions you hold and the arguments you present to be attacked? Kasz216 has not engaged in personal attacks beyond attacking your arguments and positions so far as I have seen.

Yes I do expect the argument to be attacked.

And I was reffering back to a previous argument me and him had in which I was attacked.

Also I tend to reflect how others act, if your curdious and understanding I'll be curdious and understand, if you refuse to budge one inch so will I.

Kasz216 - is extremmly smart but he refuses to back down or give in any.

Edit: You find out alot about people when you argue with them and alot about their motives. The Common Sense remark was bait.


Bait for what?

Also baiting is against forum rules.

As for my motives for debating? That's simple. To learn stuff. In this thread alone I learned about Ligers, Tigons and an interesting study about worms. I also got to find and read an interesting paper on intellegent design. One I disagreed with, but it was an interesting read.

After all, it's not like this is the house of congress or something where there is any reason to argue about things.

Even if you convince someone that the sun is going to rise at exactly 5:43 tommorrow, it's not going to actually change if the sun is going to rise at 5:43 tommorrow. 



kenzomatic on 08 March 2008

I can prove GOD.

Step 1 Buy a gun
Step 2 **** ****

Amazingly it is also the same method for disproving god.



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.

ioi + 1
Final-Fan on 08 March 2008
kenzomatic said:
Final-Fan said:
kenzomatic said:
You are seperating common sense and logic I am not saying they are inseparable but rather nonexclusive terms.

I think you have trouble reading.
kenzomatic said:
I Agree with you. So you know I am very prone to play devils advocate. Though I do not enjoy being attacked for it.

Blocking "common sense" is one thing but blocking logic is not good.
But surely then you expect the positions you hold and the arguments you present to be attacked?  Kasz216 has not engaged in personal attacks beyond attacking your arguments and positions so far as I have seen.
Yes I do expect the argument to be attacked.

And I was reffering back to a previous argument me and him had in which I was attacked.

Also I tend to reflect how others act, if your curdious and understanding I'll be curdious and understand, if you refuse to budge one inch so will I.

Kasz216 - is extremmly smart but he refuses to back down or give in any.

Edit: You find out alot about people when you argue with them and alot about their motives. The Common Sense remark was bait.
That only works if your positions are equally defensible.  If one of you is right and the other is wrong it's not reasonable to expect a compromise.

I suppose by "common sense remark" you mean the one quoted above.  If that was your "bait" then it looks like you were deliberately trying to antagonize him.  Playing Devil's Advocate to probe the strength of one's position is one thing but doing it for the purpose of picking a fight (or perpetuating one) is quite another.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

kenzomatic on 08 March 2008
Kasz216 said:
kenzomatic said:
Final-Fan said:
kenzomatic said:
You are seperating common sense and logic I am not saying they are inseparable but rather nonexclusive terms.

I think you have trouble reading.
kenzomatic said:
I Agree with you. So you know I am very prone to play devils advocate. Though I do not enjoy being attacked for it.

Blocking "common sense" is one thing but blocking logic is not good.
But surely then you expect the positions you hold and the arguments you present to be attacked? Kasz216 has not engaged in personal attacks beyond attacking your arguments and positions so far as I have seen.

Yes I do expect the argument to be attacked.

And I was reffering back to a previous argument me and him had in which I was attacked.

Also I tend to reflect how others act, if your curdious and understanding I'll be curdious and understand, if you refuse to budge one inch so will I.

Kasz216 - is extremmly smart but he refuses to back down or give in any.

Edit: You find out alot about people when you argue with them and alot about their motives. The Common Sense remark was bait.


Bait for what?

Also baiting is against forum rules.

As for my motives for debating? That's simple. To learn stuff. In this thread alone I learned about Ligers, Tigons and an interesting study about worms. I also got to find and read an interesting paper on intellegent design. One I disagreed with, but it was an interesting read.

After all, it's not like this is the house of congress or something where there is any reason to argue about things.

Even if you convince someone that the sun is going to rise at exactly 5:43 tommorrow, it's not going to actually change if the sun is going to rise at 5:43 tommorrow. 


I fear me and your are too similiar.

Tons of things are gained through debating (discusion sense), but more is gainned when it is on a give and take level as it allows you to take the conversation to other areas. As I think this thread proves. One should question everything including themselves.

You have a motivation not to be wrong and I have been figuring out what it is and what is causing it.



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.

ioi + 1
kenzomatic on 08 March 2008
Final-Fan said:
kenzomatic said:
Final-Fan said:
kenzomatic said:
You are seperating common sense and logic I am not saying they are inseparable but rather nonexclusive terms.

I think you have trouble reading.
kenzomatic said:
I Agree with you. So you know I am very prone to play devils advocate. Though I do not enjoy being attacked for it.

Blocking "common sense" is one thing but blocking logic is not good.
But surely then you expect the positions you hold and the arguments you present to be attacked?  Kasz216 has not engaged in personal attacks beyond attacking your arguments and positions so far as I have seen.
Yes I do expect the argument to be attacked.

And I was reffering back to a previous argument me and him had in which I was attacked.

Also I tend to reflect how others act, if your curdious and understanding I'll be curdious and understand, if you refuse to budge one inch so will I.

Kasz216 - is extremmly smart but he refuses to back down or give in any.

Edit: You find out alot about people when you argue with them and alot about their motives. The Common Sense remark was bait.
That only works if your positions are equally defensible.  If one of you is right and the other is wrong it's not reasonable to expect a compromise.

I suppose by "common sense remark" you mean the one quoted above.  If that was your "bait" then it looks like you were deliberately trying to antagonize him.  Playing Devil's Advocate to probe the strength of one's position is one thing but doing it for the purpose of picking a fight (or perpetuating one) is quite another.

I was not picking a fight I was getting to know him better. Also engaging someone threw devious methods is not exactly a bad thing. Look at dating.

There is no absolutes in symantics.



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.

ioi + 1