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jetforcejiminy said:
Cloudman said:

This is off topic, but since I`ve never played them before, would you recommend any of the PS1 Crash or Spyro games? I`ve heard they were good, so some time I would like to give them a fair shot.

i couldn't in good conscience recommend any of them. try klonoa instead. or the jumping flash games i mentioned. they're all on psn and look great, say, on a vita. crash team racing, a mario kart rip-off, is the least bad crash game i've played.


Kloanoa was always a game I wanted to try also. I really liked his design too. That one I def want to try. Thanks for answerin`



 

              

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All those PS1 games you've mentioned, I own on my PS3, despite never growing up with any of them except Jumping Flash 1 & 2. I don't even play them, honestly, they just sit there on my PS3 and vita... Ignored. I may have to put some crash and spyro on my vita and have a go.



Spyro was my first 3d game, at the time it was funny, plus it had fun gameplay. Plus I love collecting stuff in games so I loved the idea of getting all the gems etc



old skool

spemanig said:
Cloudman said:

What`s wrong with Sonic Adventure 1 and 2? I thought they were great games.


I don't really want to get into it, so this will be my only post addressing this.

Bad physics, frequent glitches, bad camera, poor animations, bad controls, poor level design, padded "gameplay variety," terrible collision detection, bad voice acting, terrible story, and the game is flat out ugly, even for it's time.

I honestly don't get how Sonic 06 can be so unnanimously hated, yet these two games get off like they're some revolution. They aren't even mediocre. They are legitimately badly made games. Maybe it's because Sonic O6's glitches made the glitches in the prior seem far less frequent by comparison? I don't know, but there is so much wrong with those games.

And it's not a 3D vs. 2D issue. Sonic can be done well in 3D; he just hasn't yet. Too many people will say that "Spemanig, you're full of it. Generations and Colors were GREAT games," but they weren't. The difference is that they weren't flat out terrible games like the Adventure games. They were mediocre, which is frankly a massive improvement. They didn't have bad physics or frequent glitches. Their cameras weren't bad. Their animations were great, their controls were... Well, still bad, but much better than SA1+2. The level design was weak, but not flat out bad like the SA games. There was no gameplay variety padding. They didn't have bad collision detection, the VA was good, and the story served the gameplay. And the games are fucking beautiful, for their time, and for years to come.

If you ask me, the 3D sections in Lost World are the closest Sonic has ever come to getting it right in 3D because it finally got the controls and level design better in many regards, and even that game is extremely mediocre. But if you look at all of the games objectively, it absolutely blows my mind that anyone can say that these games have any redeaming qualities outside of their sound track. (which I still personally think is completely out of place in a Sonic game, but at least it's a good thing that's out of place)


I think because I played it when it first came out, I didn`t really have many issues with the game, amd I really enjoyed playing it (mostly as Sonic, of course). Every other character were not as enjoyable as Sonic`s sections, but the variety was a nice shot made by Sega, except Big the Cat. I think Sonic Adventure was praised a lot because it was the first actual 3D Sonic game that, in my opinion, did well. I enjoyed blazing through Sonic`s stages at high speeds and I had little issues with the controls of the game.

I also enjoyed Sonic Adventure 2, and while the sections with Knux/Rouge and Tails/Eggman were okay (I didn`t like what they did to Tails), I thought they were alright. The running sections I think were better and I really enjoyed the grinding mechanic. I thought the stages and controls were good, like City Escape, Radical Highway, and Metal Harbor. I played thru them just fine and I liked them.

I can`t comment on Sonic 06 since I never played it  never want to due to its bad reputation, as well as other games that followed, but I think SA1 and 2 were done well, or was the right step for 3D Sonic games.

I`ve played Sonic Lost Worlds, and oddly enough, I am not so much a fan of the controls. I don`t like that there is a run button now. I must be too used to just Sonic gradually gaining speed, but I`ll try to adjust to it.

Anyways, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I was just really curious. : ) And the music is soo good! The City Escape song is one of my absolute favorite songs from SA2!



 

              

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jetforcejiminy said:
Skullwaker said:

I don't, apparently. 

Have you played Crash or Spyro before? I don't think many games from the late 90s in general hold up well today, considering that was when 3D first became a thing and developers didn't know how to implement it into their games. However, both series are still enjoyable today and are quite polished. They both had really great dev teams.

just played crash bandicoot (the 1996 original) for about an hour out of morbid curiosity. never again. it's amazing how much better jak and daxter is than the crash games. (and i don't even like jak and daxter.)

but that gets at my question: is it nostalgia? mechanically crash is unplayable today.

Crash 1 is almost impossible to play for me today.  Crash 2 is better but still suffers from no Dualshock support.  Crash 3 is just as amazing today as it was all those years ago.  I replayed it when I bought it digitally after a decade of not touching it and boy was I impressed.  I'm not one to be clouded by nostalgia either as I've replayed childhood favorites like Mario 64, Crash 1 and 2, Resident Evil 1-3, and several others that have not held up but Spyro 1 and 2 (never was a fan of 3) and Crash 3 and CTR hold up amazing today.




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Cloudman said:

I think because I played it when it first came out, I didn`t really have many issues with the game, amd I really enjoyed playing it (mostly as Sonic, of course). Every other character were not as enjoyable as Sonic`s sections, but the variety was a nice shot made by Sega, except Big the Cat. I think Sonic Adventure was praised a lot because it was the first actual 3D Sonic game that, in my opinion, did well. I enjoyed blazing through Sonic`s stages at high speeds and I had little issues with the controls of the game.

I also enjoyed Sonic Adventure 2, and while the sections with Knux/Rouge and Tails/Eggman were okay (I didn`t like what they did to Tails), I thought they were alright. The running sections I think were better and I really enjoyed the grinding mechanic. I thought the stages and controls were good, like City Escape, Radical Highway, and Metal Harbor. I played thru them just fine and I liked them.

I can`t comment on Sonic 06 since I never played it  never want to due to its bad reputation, as well as other games that followed, but I think SA1 and 2 were done well, or was the right step for 3D Sonic games.

I`ve played Sonic Lost Worlds, and oddly enough, I am not so much a fan of the controls. I don`t like that there is a run button now. I must be too used to just Sonic gradually gaining speed, but I`ll try to adjust to it.

Anyways, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I was just really curious. : ) And the music is soo good! The City Escape song is one of my absolute favorite songs from SA2!


The only thing wrong with his controls in Lost World was the run button. Everything else was the tightest they had ever been and frankly the only time the controls and physics were ever even remotely acceptable in a 3D Sonic game. 3D sonic has this terrible habit of always feeling like you're on ice, and the jump controls are so bad that it needs a dedicated "homing" attack to make up for it. Lost World had the homing, but it definitely didn't need it.

You're absolutely right; Sonic is supposed to gradually gain speed, but absolutely none of the 3D Sonics have done that well. Not without absolutely destroying sturdy controls. Lost World got it so right because the only flaw it it's controls was the lack of momentum. In Sonic, speed is only a reward for good playforming and not the core mechanic, levels are a rolercoaster designed to give you more opportunities to naturally momentum, and enemies are just the obstacles meant to try and stop your momentum. The 3D Sonic game that game close to understanding and implementing that is Lost World. And, like I said, that game isn't nearly close enough, but none of the other games are on the same stratosphere.

The most of the 2D Sonics understand this, but Sonic 3 and the Sonic Advanced games, most gloriously Sonic Advanced 2, are absolute shining examples. When there's a 3D Sonic with no homing attack, you'll know they have it right. Any system that takes away control from your movement doesn't belong in a Sonic game, and the homing cheat is the most offensive intance of this. Any system that gives you full speed for free doesn't belong in a Sonic game, and the boost/entire game design of Colors and Generations are the most offensive examples. And Sonic game where you have to stop your forward momentum to get past an enemy, or where an enemy is not creating an obstacle for the player to solve though platforming, is failing at that part of being as Sonic game.



I don't get why some like spyro as it was crap. Crash was awesome though!



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spemanig said:


The only thing wrong with his controls in Lost World was the run button. Everything else was the tightest they had ever been and frankly the only time the controls and physics were ever even remotely acceptable in a 3D Sonic game. 3D sonic has this terrible habit of always feeling like you're on ice, and the jump controls are so bad that it needs a dedicated "homing" attack to make up for it. Lost World had the homing, but it definitely didn't need it.

You're absolutely right; Sonic is supposed to gradually gain speed, but absolutely none of the 3D Sonics have done that well. Not without absolutely destroying sturdy controls. Lost World got it so right because the only flaw it it's controls was the lack of momentum. In Sonic, speed is only a reward for good playforming and not the core mechanic, levels are a rolercoaster designed to give you more opportunities to naturally momentum, and enemies are just the obstacles meant to try and stop your momentum. The 3D Sonic game that game close to understanding and implementing that is Lost World. And, like I said, that game isn't nearly close enough, but none of the other games are on the same stratosphere.

The most of the 2D Sonics understand this, but Sonic 3 and the Sonic Advanced games, most gloriously Sonic Advanced 2, are absolute shining examples. When there's a 3D Sonic with no homing attack, you'll know they have it right. Any system that takes away control from your movement doesn't belong in a Sonic game, and the homing cheat is the most offensive intance of this. Any system that gives you full speed for free doesn't belong in a Sonic game, and the boost/entire game design of Colors and Generations are the most offensive examples. And Sonic game where you have to stop your forward momentum to get past an enemy, or where an enemy is not creating an obstacle for the player to solve though platforming, is failing at that part of being as Sonic game.

Funny you mention the homing attack in Lost Worlds. I haven`t gotten used to that mechanic in the game and it feels awkward so far to me. I hope I can get adjusted to that.

I actually thought the homing attack was a good addition and I really liked it. It made attacking enemies really fun and it was a quick action. I think it helped keep the fast pace going in the running stages. I think homing attacks was the best they could do to remedy attacking enemies in a 3D space. I think they could have it where you can just jump and land on them on your own, but for some reason they make Sonic get out of ball form after you jump, and it would seem a little slow to get through. Though with the homing attack, it at least keeps that momentum going, which now Speed is mostly what Sonic is associated with.

The 2D sonic games did well in keeping the fast pace going because you only have to to worry about left and right, and with 3D, it`s a little harder, and I think the homing attack is one way to remedy this, though you bring up a good point. Why can`t they convert that constant movement to 3D? Being able to switch into a ball while running helped get through enemies, and not slowing down when hitting enemies helped keep you going. I` m sure there`s a way to have that same movement from 2D Sonic games to 3D. Whether we`ll see that, who knows... Anyways, I like the homing attacks but you do make good points I never considered before. Thanks for that~



 

              

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Cloudman said:

Funny you mention the homing attack in Lost Worlds. I haven`t gotten used to that mechanic in the game and it feels awkward so far to me. I hope I can get adjusted to that.

I actually thought the homing attack was a good addition and I really liked it. It made attacking enemies really fun and it was a quick action. I think it helped keep the fast pace going in the running stages. I think homing attacks was the best they could do to remedy attacking enemies in a 3D space. I think they could have it where you can just jump and land on them on your own, but for some reason they make Sonic get out of ball form after you jump, and it would seem a little slow to get through. Though with the homing attack, it at least keeps that momentum going, which now Speed is mostly what Sonic is associated with.

The 2D sonic games did well in keeping the fast pace going because you only have to to worry about left and right, and with 3D, it`s a little harder, and I think the homing attack is one way to remedy this, though you bring up a good point. Why can`t they convert that constant movement to 3D? Being able to switch into a ball while running helped get through enemies, and not slowing down when hitting enemies helped keep you going. I` m sure there`s a way to have that same movement from 2D Sonic games to 3D. Whether we`ll see that, who knows... Anyways, I like the homing attacks but you do make good points I never considered before. Thanks for that~


That's just not true. The homing attack is literally concrete evidence that the controls in those games are bad. It's a platformer. Imagine if Mario had a homing attack for mushrooms in Galaxy. You're supposed to skillfully skid/bounce off enemies naturally. The homing attack completely destroys that, betrays the already bad physics of most of the games (again, except in Lost World), and additionally removes all skill from successfully platforming off an enemy to maintain momentum.

The homing attack completely ignores your momentum and current speed, changing it completely to one standard "homing" speed. It completely destroys any momentum you had, or at least unrealistically alters it.

2D Sonic did well because their level design, enemy placement, physics, and controls were perfect. The homing attack was added because those elements in the 3D games weren't, not because 3D itself makes things more difficult. It had nothing to do with it being in 2D and only having two directions. Simply making the enemies larger by comparison to Sonic and placing them in spots that better aid to platforming and gaining momentum would have completely fixed that without ruining momentum or betraying physics. And fixing his terrible controls while in the air. Again, look at all the platformers that do it successfully. It's all because of the way they're designed.

Look at it this way; In 2D Sonic, you're a pro skate boarder. You're supposed to be in a skating park, and there are obstacles everywhere. 3D Sonic changed the skateboard to one that isn't as good with magnetic wheels, changed the skating park to one long downhill ramp with a few easy jumps, and whenever you think you won't make one, you get to click a button that yanks you to the nearest metal obstacle.

I'm 100% sure they could bring back how the spin dash or ball curl worked in the 2D games, but remember how completely reliant those were on semi-realistic physics. Once you spin dashed or curled into a ball, you were literally a ball and the only momentum you could gain was from the level design. The game respected ball physices and designed every single level and placed every enemy intelligently to accomidate that.



spemanig said:


That's just not true. The homing attack is literally concrete evidence that the controls in those games are bad. It's a platformer. Imagine if Mario had a homing attack for mushrooms in Galaxy. You're supposed to skillfully skid/bounce off enemies naturally. The homing attack completely destroys that, betrays the already bad physics of most of the games (again, except in Lost World), and additionally removes all skill from successfully platforming off an enemy to maintain momentum.

The homing attack completely ignores your momentum and current speed, changing it completely to one standard "homing" speed. It completely destroys any momentum you had, or at least unrealistically alters it.

2D Sonic did well because their level design, enemy placement, physics, and controls were perfect. The homing attack was added because those elements in the 3D games weren't, not because 3D itself makes things more difficult. It had nothing to do with it being in 2D and only having two directions. Simply making the enemies larger by comparison to Sonic and placing them in spots that better aid to platforming and gaining momentum would have completely fixed that without ruining momentum or betraying physics. And fixing his terrible controls while in the air. Again, look at all the platformers that do it successfully. It's all because of the way they're designed.

Look at it this way; In 2D Sonic, you're a pro skate boarder. You're supposed to be in a skating park, and there are obstacles everywhere. 3D Sonic changed the skateboard to one that isn't as good with magnetic wheels, changed the skating park to one long downhill ramp with a few easy jumps, and whenever you think you won't make one, you get to click a button that yanks you to the nearest metal obstacle.

I'm 100% sure they could bring back how the spin dash or ball curl worked in the 2D games, but remember how completely reliant those were on semi-realistic physics. Once you spin dashed or curled into a ball, you were literally a ball and the only momentum you could gain was from the level design. The game respected ball physices and designed every single level and placed every enemy intelligently to accomidate that.

I think the homing attack worked better in the SA games at the time as opposed to it being in Mario Galaxy because while they're both platformers, the goals of the 2 games are different. In 3D Mario games, usually the goal is to find and collect stars of some sort, while in Sonic games, the goal is to reach the end as fast as possible. Skillfully trying to bounce off of enemies  while maintaing a fast speed I don't think it would work as well as opposed to using the home attack, unless they designed it in a way where you can do that and maintain fast speeds. Though the examples you give I think are good ones that could be a way to do this.

You're right also in that the homing attack does take away skill from platforming by basically making it easier and it kills whatever speed you were going at the time. It would be good if they can fix this to still have skillful jumps and platforming while stilling being able to go as fast as possible, but I guess for now, they'll have to settle with the homing attack. Also, on being stuck in a ball in the 2D Sonic games, I think you could get out of the ball and back to running position in SA1.



 

              

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