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Forums - Sales Discussion - 20 million sellers for the wii!

jimmay said:
nintendo_fanboy said:
jimmay said:

No the reality is most people have poor taste and wouldn't know something good if it came and hit them in the face, even tho britney spears doesn't have the best voice, most of her songs aren't anything special and she generally gets bad reviews her records still sell alot. Why? Because people are buying her music for all the wrong reasons. Just because a new demographic of gamers has come to the for front (a.k.a. casual gamers) and they have latched onto shallow, short, easy mini games collections that have nearly always scored poorly doesn't suddenly make these poor games good, they are still poor games regardless of how much they sell.


So you say people are buying everything and only some can tell what is good and what not?

I'm glad you are not the one to decide over the political system in my country, because you'd surely install a dictator. Your opinion is against all the theories of free will, Liberalism and democracy.

Now you may think I am exagerating, but this is really where your way of thinking is leading to. Of course sometimes a bad game, a bad artist or a bad film gets great sales, but those media are usually "bad" in a different way than the rock band of your brother. For example, there are a lot of things that can be said against Britney Spears, but she actually is a good singer and had good songs. In my opinion, her songs are bullshit compared to the album of Kate Nash, but I still prefer her over Mary J. Blige for example, while other people may think that Kate Nash is bullshit and MJB the best thing in the world. Best selling things aren't usually the best, but the things most people like somehow, i.e. the general consensus. That doesn't make them bad, that only makes them less special than some less popular artists.

This works the exact same way for games. You can sit down and have a lot of fun playing Mario Party. This is nowhere near the joy you have when you are playing an epic single player game, but it's still fun. Here's the great difference to other low rated games as HappySquirrel already pointed out: Mario Party is not rated low because of it's flaws like other 70 % games, but because it isn't heading the same way as epic games.


Talk about completly missing the point, the fact is people can like whatever they want to like, i never said any different. To put it simply just because somebody likes something the best doesn't mean it actually is the best. For decades gamers have accepted that the average review score from professional reviewers is a very good indicator of how good a game is. Every generation without fail the console with the most top rated games is the console that wins the generation. This has now gone all back to front because casual gamers have come along and they don't have a clue what a good game is.

Lets use motor racing as an example. Fans of motor racing like the skill of the drivers, they like the technical knowledge of building a car, they like the excitement of overtaking, cornering, quick pit stops and team tactics. A good race is one that contains all of those things. Now lets say their is a new casual crowd that has come along to watch racing, they don't really care about the things i mentioned above, all they care about is how many crashes their are, also because they don't really care that much about racing they can't be bothered to watch an hour long race, they can only be bothered with a 20 minute race. So yet again the casual crowd don't have a clue about what makes a good race just like they don't have a clue what makes a good game. A race with poor drivers, poorly built cars, no overtaking, amature pit stops and bad team tactics is a terrible race no matter how you slice it, if in that race their were a bunch of spectacular crashes the the casual crowd loved does that now make the race a good one??? Hell no, it was still a terrible race with a bunch of casual people with poor taste completely oblivious.


You've got the relationship backwards ...

The PS2 launched with a remarkably lackluster line-up which was noticeably worse than the Dreamcast but sold (amazingly) well anyways. As the generation progressed its massive sales ensured that (pretty much) any third party game of note would be released on the PS2. In other words, when you look back at a generation the system that sold the best ended up having the most highly reviewed games.

Just look at the Nintendo DS vs. the PSP ... Currently (based on gamerankings or metacritic) the PSP has far more highly rated games but the Nintendo DS has over 100 announced games to be released in 2008 whereas the PSP has less than 50, and in 2009 and 2010 the Nintendo DS' releases will outpace the PSP's releases by an even greater margin; when you look back at this generation of handhelds in 2011 the Nintendo DS will (easily) have way more high quality games simply because it ended up having more games released for it (because it sold better)



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RolStoppable said:

@jimmay

You seem to be really bitter that casual gamers don't have a clue what a good game is. Just out of interest, what's your opinion on this?


I'm bitter because im stating facts? A bad game is a bad game, if casuals seem to like them then good for them they are having fun. I've already seen the ps2 list of million selling games and if you want the breakdown that shows the quality of the games on the list here you go:

Out of the 205 million selling ps2 games listed on vgchartz 132 have an average review score of 80% or more. That's 64% of ps2 million sellers are rated 80% or above compared to only 40% of wii games rated at 80% or above.



naznatips said:
erikers said:
Thanks to the Wii for proving even shitty games can consistently sell good on it and perpetuate more crappy games being made for it.

Yeah, I get tired of all these shitty games selling well. See, I can give opinions as fact too?

In other news, Sonic and the Secret Rings was actually a decent game. The main issues were its lack of a backup camera and a stupid RPG system that forced you to buy better controls. If they get rid of those for the (inevitable) sequel, it will be the best 3D Sonic game ever.


 ...So in order to get better controls in the game you have to buy items/equipment in the game? What?! :( That's pointless.



erikers said:
Thanks to the Wii for proving even shitty games can consistently sell good on it and perpetuate more crappy games being made for it.

Others will handle you, I'm trying to cull my anger.



I don't need your console war.
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor.
You're power hungry, spinnin' stories, and bein' graphics whores.
I don't need your console war.

NO NO, NO NO NO.

HappySqurriel said:
jimmay said:
nintendo_fanboy said:
jimmay said:

No the reality is most people have poor taste and wouldn't know something good if it came and hit them in the face, even tho britney spears doesn't have the best voice, most of her songs aren't anything special and she generally gets bad reviews her records still sell alot. Why? Because people are buying her music for all the wrong reasons. Just because a new demographic of gamers has come to the for front (a.k.a. casual gamers) and they have latched onto shallow, short, easy mini games collections that have nearly always scored poorly doesn't suddenly make these poor games good, they are still poor games regardless of how much they sell.


So you say people are buying everything and only some can tell what is good and what not?

I'm glad you are not the one to decide over the political system in my country, because you'd surely install a dictator. Your opinion is against all the theories of free will, Liberalism and democracy.

Now you may think I am exagerating, but this is really where your way of thinking is leading to. Of course sometimes a bad game, a bad artist or a bad film gets great sales, but those media are usually "bad" in a different way than the rock band of your brother. For example, there are a lot of things that can be said against Britney Spears, but she actually is a good singer and had good songs. In my opinion, her songs are bullshit compared to the album of Kate Nash, but I still prefer her over Mary J. Blige for example, while other people may think that Kate Nash is bullshit and MJB the best thing in the world. Best selling things aren't usually the best, but the things most people like somehow, i.e. the general consensus. That doesn't make them bad, that only makes them less special than some less popular artists.

This works the exact same way for games. You can sit down and have a lot of fun playing Mario Party. This is nowhere near the joy you have when you are playing an epic single player game, but it's still fun. Here's the great difference to other low rated games as HappySquirrel already pointed out: Mario Party is not rated low because of it's flaws like other 70 % games, but because it isn't heading the same way as epic games.


Talk about completly missing the point, the fact is people can like whatever they want to like, i never said any different. To put it simply just because somebody likes something the best doesn't mean it actually is the best. For decades gamers have accepted that the average review score from professional reviewers is a very good indicator of how good a game is. Every generation without fail the console with the most top rated games is the console that wins the generation. This has now gone all back to front because casual gamers have come along and they don't have a clue what a good game is.

Lets use motor racing as an example. Fans of motor racing like the skill of the drivers, they like the technical knowledge of building a car, they like the excitement of overtaking, cornering, quick pit stops and team tactics. A good race is one that contains all of those things. Now lets say their is a new casual crowd that has come along to watch racing, they don't really care about the things i mentioned above, all they care about is how many crashes their are, also because they don't really care that much about racing they can't be bothered to watch an hour long race, they can only be bothered with a 20 minute race. So yet again the casual crowd don't have a clue about what makes a good race just like they don't have a clue what makes a good game. A race with poor drivers, poorly built cars, no overtaking, amature pit stops and bad team tactics is a terrible race no matter how you slice it, if in that race their were a bunch of spectacular crashes the the casual crowd loved does that now make the race a good one??? Hell no, it was still a terrible race with a bunch of casual people with poor taste completely oblivious.


You've got the relationship backwards ...

The PS2 launched with a remarkably lackluster line-up which was noticeably worse than the Dreamcast but sold (amazingly) well anyways. As the generation progressed its massive sales ensured that (pretty much) any third party game of note would be released on the PS2. In other words, when you look back at a generation the system that sold the best ended up having the most highly reviewed games.

Just look at the Nintendo DS vs. the PSP ... Currently (based on gamerankings or metacritic) the PSP has far more highly rated games but the Nintendo DS has over 100 announced games to be released in 2008 whereas the PSP has less than 50, and in 2009 and 2010 the Nintendo DS' releases will outpace the PSP's releases by an even greater margin; when you look back at this generation of handhelds in 2011 the Nintendo DS will (easily) have way more high quality games simply because it ended up having more games released for it (because it sold better)


No you've got it wrong, most consoles launch with a poor line up. The ps2 won because by it's second christmas it got grand theft auto 3, gran turismo 3, final fantasy 10, metal gear 2, devil may cry, ratchet and clank etc. These games dont come from no where they take years to make and people knew they were coming so brought the ps2 in advance. On top of that the ps2 was a dvd player and it could play ps1 games. People just dont randomly buy a console then games are made for it, people buy the consoles with the top games they want to play that are either released now or are about to come out.



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RolStoppable said:
jimmay said:
RolStoppable said:

@jimmay

You seem to be really bitter that casual gamers don't have a clue what a good game is. Just out of interest, what's your opinion on this?


I'm bitter because im stating facts? A bad game is a bad game, if casuals seem to like them then good for them they are having fun. I've already seen the ps2 list of million selling games and if you want the breakdown that shows the quality of the games on the list here you go:

Out of the 205 million selling ps2 games listed on vgchartz 132 have an average review score of 80% or more. That's 64% of ps2 million sellers are rated 80% or above compared to only 40% of wii games rated at 80% or above.


64 % for the PS2 is way lower than the 85 % for the 360. Which percentage do you consider to be acceptable for a million sellers list? In other words, when is it good enough to stop complaining?

When the majority of million selling games are top rated. So that's atleast 50%, ideally 60%.



That's why I hate numerical scores. Their only purpose to is fuel stupid fanboy arguments. This is nothing but elitist crap.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

RolStoppable said:
jimmay said:
RolStoppable said:
jimmay said:
RolStoppable said:

@jimmay

You seem to be really bitter that casual gamers don't have a clue what a good game is. Just out of interest, what's your opinion on this?


I'm bitter because im stating facts? A bad game is a bad game, if casuals seem to like them then good for them they are having fun. I've already seen the ps2 list of million selling games and if you want the breakdown that shows the quality of the games on the list here you go:

Out of the 205 million selling ps2 games listed on vgchartz 132 have an average review score of 80% or more. That's 64% of ps2 million sellers are rated 80% or above compared to only 40% of wii games rated at 80% or above.


64 % for the PS2 is way lower than the 85 % for the 360. Which percentage do you consider to be acceptable for a million sellers list? In other words, when is it good enough to stop complaining?

When the majority of million selling games are top rated. So that's atleast 50%, ideally 60%.


Why would 60 % be ideally? The ideal would be if all million selling games were top rated, don't you think?

Why? because 50% obviously is just half, when people see 52, 55 or 58% they think to themselves well that's almost half so 60% is a nice round number that unquestionably represents the majority.



jimmay said:

No you've got it wrong, most consoles launch with a poor line up. The ps2 won because by it's second christmas it got grand theft auto 3, gran turismo 3, final fantasy 10, metal gear 2, devil may cry, ratchet and clank etc. These games dont come from no where they take years to make and people knew they were coming so brought the ps2 in advance. On top of that the ps2 was a dvd player and it could play ps1 games. People just dont randomly buy a console then games are made for it, people buy the consoles with the top games they want to play that are either released now or are about to come out.


You mean, after the PS2 had been on the market for 18 months (in Japan, 12 months in North America) it started to get good games while the Dreamcast had a steady supply of really good games from the time it launched until it was discontinued, and the PS2 won because of the quality of its games?

The PS2 sold 13,170,835 consoles in its first 12 months (cumulative across all regions, http://vgchartz.com/hwlaunch.php?cons1=PS2&reg1=Japan&cons2=PS2&reg2=America&cons3=PS2&reg3=Total+Other&weeks=52 ) with very bad supply problems in all regions early on, and (by your own admitance) no good games in its first year ... yet you claim it was the 'Games' that made the PS2 sell?