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Forums - Gaming Discussion - No Goblin co-founder: Saying PS4 is “More Powerful” Than Xbox One Or Vice Versa Is Really Misrepresenting How Games Work


Clicked for the armchair development experts, I am satisfied.

Btw I am bummed I thought this was in the Roundabout series.

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JustBeingReal said:
Nate4Drake said:
JustBeingReal said:
walsufnir said:
JustBeingReal said:
walsufnir said:
JustBeingReal said:

I think I'll take Ubisoft's own GPU physics simulation over this guys flawed analysis, GPU simulation has also been capable of handling AI since 2009 on AMD GPUs, so the results of the difference between GPU compute on PS4 and XBox One shows the PS4 to be almost 2X more capable in that area and that's before the recent SDK launch.

GPU compute absolutely offsets any benefits and far exceeds the marginally faster CPU performance XB1 apparently has, even though developers have said that PS4's CPU actually performed faster than XB1's.

Sony have unveiled some details about their 2.0 SDK for PS4, which includes a low level API for GPU Physics Simulation. The fact is that PS4 is more capable not just in graphics processing, but everything else should also run significantly faster on PS4.

Perhaps it's Sony's fault because it's not been until recently that they've started rolling out dev kit updates to start actually taking advantage of the benefits that GPU compute can offer, or it's just not that well optimized yet.

As it stands many current engines used for game development seem to still be focusing their physics and AI processing on the CPU, not GPU, but it's something that will benefit all platforms, so it only makes logical sense that in the not too distant future even 3rd party developers will start to update their engines to use GPGPU coding.
With this being a standard thing in Sony's latest SDK newly announced games being revealed over the next few months should start taking advantage of these features on PS4.


But GPGPU is using the same hardware you use for rendering. The simulation where it showed PS4 optimization was using GPUs only for GPGPU purposes so you won't see this advantage in any game. Yes, PS4 has dedicated hardware for an async approach (rendering and GPGPU) but they don't have additional ALUs for that. Still most of the hardware is shared so it will be interesting to see in which way this can be used but I won't expect wonders off it.

 

Graphics rendering is never maxed out throughout 100% of the GPU time, GPU downtime is what Compute Queues are designed to take advantage of, it's all about making sure processing time isn't wasted, so what I'm talking about is using the hardware as efficiently as possible, without wasting resources that would otherwise go unused.

An example of this is something like Assassin's Creed Unity, where we have Ubisoft stating that if it wasn't for the weaker CPUs in either PS4 or Xbox One they could run the game at 100FPS, well they're running the game at less than 1/3 of that speed most of the time, wasting all of that GPU down time which could be otherwise used on physics and AI.

If we look at Ubisoft's benchmarks and Sony's recent SKD 2.0 slides (http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/11/23/ps4-sdk-2-0-revealed-includes-a-lot-of-interesting-new-tech-and-features-game-developers-can-use/), the CPU can be used for physics or AI that the player directly interacts with, so more close-up specific stuff, while the GPU could easily handle huge crowds filled with either. The GPU can supplement part of the demand, so it can easily be used to make up for the weaker CPU.

PS4 does have additional ALUs compared to XB1, it also has extra texture mapping units and ROPs, so higher resolutions, better AA, AF and more demanding textures can all be taken advantage of, while even better physics and AI simulation is easily programmable by developers.


But you can't use it if other resources or channels are already congested. I don't say it can't be used but the GPU is restricted and dependant of other resources and these are also used by CPU and by GPU contexts so we will have to see to what extent devs will be able to use it but I am not sure if it is that much. There will be a trade-off between using the GPU for graphics or GPGPU, you can't have both in that case without penalting the other.

 

That's the point of the way the whole APU has been designed, developers can easily queue up compute commands, have them waiting for when GPU hardware is free to process it. The GPU is never completely saturated dealing with graphical tasks, there's always tonnes of times when Stream Processors are sitting idle, so this is when AI and Physics are handled. Remember I said efficiency?

You should be sure that developers can use this to a great level of extent, because that's what they asked for when Sony did all of their research in what hardware to put in PS4.

There's no need for a trade off with this because it's part of the system's design to use resources as efficiently as possible.

Not only, you might also use 1 Full CU of the GPU for generic task together with the CPU and async compute on the others. PS4 has so much versatility, having 50% more CUs count than XOne.  A very simple concept that some have missed.  And, it appears that XOne CPU(alone) is slighty faster on paper than PS4 CPU(alone), but in game application it's not true. It looks like PS4 CPU is faster. Do I remember wrong ?  But whatever it is about CPU alone, the combo CPU + 18 CUs of PS4 and the extra memory bandwidth makes the Sony Machine the superior machine in EVERYTHING, graphics, phisics, animations, AI, etc in any combination. It's up to the Developers.  

This is just the beginning : http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/11/23/ps4-sdk-2-0-revealed-includes-a-lot-of-interesting-new-tech-and-features-game-developers-can-use/


Yep developers can use a chunk of the GPU specifically for Compute processing all the time if needed, it's a flexible design so developers can use as big or small a chunk of the GPU for whatever they need. Mark Cerny just described the way the GPU could be shared as a slice of the milliseconds available per frame of processing time, mainly because it's a more efficient use of resources to slot compute commands in where it's available within each frame and that would probably be far more suitable in graphically demanding games. Developers can definitely take the same amount of processing performance as the CPU offers from the GPU, double up on resources for AI and Physics and still have more hardware for graphics than the XB1 offers.

 

As for how fast PS4's CPU is in reality compared to XB1's there was a confirmed developer on Neogaf that outright stated PS4's CPU to be faster, I don't think any official developer has come out and said that. The overall design of the APU could lead to the CPU performaning better if it's a more efficient layout.

 

People need to stop looking at these systems as one component over the other, rather as a full package and how the sum total of what the APU and RAM have to offer, PS4 is definitely better here, as well as being designed to make as efficient use of those extra resources the outright system offers.

Yep.  

''Developers can definitely take the same amount of processing performance as the CPU offers from the GPU, double up on resources for AI and Physics and still have more hardware for graphics than the XB1 offers.''  

and do even more with async on all the remaining CUs.  Uncharted4 will show a bit of this :)



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

Nate4Drake said:
nuckles87 said:
Techmaster said:
Wow this thread - so I should dismiss a game dev , you know a person who actually makes games on the system, who says that on paper spec's don't tell the full story , but instead listen to all the armchair fan boys who probably don't have a clue how either system really works but think they know better. wow


Yes, because a fanboy emotionally invested in the outcome of an argument is FAR more reliable then a guy who makes games for a living. You don't know that?

Many developers did games and lied to the media or simply said something to be polite with everybody.  I'm not a fanboy if I say so right ?

I'm not a fanboy if I say that a Console with 50% more CUs count which can do both graphics and generic tasks and far more effective memory bandwidth is a more capable system in everything right ?  If I say 1+1 = 2 am I a fanboy ?


I don't really care if you're a fanboy. I'm not gonna judge you personally because of the technical jargon you type. If typing that stuff makes you feel confident in PS4's vast technical superiority, that's fine.

Fact of the matter is, I own both consoles and I've yet to see a game on the PS4 that looks noticeably better than anything on the One. Whenever anyone talks about technical differences it ALWAYS comes down to frame rate and resolution, and even there the differences aren't really noticeable to anyone but graphics junkies. I mean my god, when people were complaning about ACU's rumored graphical parity, their complaints literally came down to "PS4 SHOULD HAVE 1080P 60 FRAMES, NOT 900P 30 FRAMES". Not the vastness of the world, number of NPCs, quality of the textures, or anything. If that's all that 40 percent increase in power is capable of, I'm not sure it's really worth bragging about. XD

So, in the end, I'm more inclined to believe a guy who works on these consoles over people who throw numbers at me without context or visual proof that demonstrates any real world difference.



torok said:
Locknuts said:
 

This is not possible. It couldn't run the games it does with lower memory bandwidth than the PS360.

On the second point, I think people underestimate the importance of SDKs. Microsoft know their software and my understanding is that developers universally praise the Microsoft dev kits. Sony I'm not sure about but with the discrepancy in hardware specs, I would say they must be behind on the software side. I can't really see any other explanation. I can't see developers intentionally sabotaging their own work for parity's sake.


1 - It is. It's on the hardware specs. The Wii U has 12.8 GB/s, the PS3 has 24.9 GB/s to the main memory (15.5 GB/s to the GPU's memory) and the 360 has 22.4 GB/s. The Wii U runs the game it does because its GPU is much beefier than the PS360 ones. But if we look close, a lot of games on 720p are presented with no AA, something that wasn't common on the PS360 where at least a FXAA solution was always used. So it's not only possible, it's on the system specs.

2 - From what devs talk about, the SDKs are close. There was a little talk about the X1 one actually having some problems with excessive overhead. The current games just reflect this. A lot of titles are 900p on X1 and 1080p on PS4, a 50% difference comparable to the difference in power. We have Unity running worse on PS4, but the publisher publicy stated they would limit the PS4's version resolution. In all other games PS4 has resolution and/or framerate advantage, eve in extreme cases as Groud Zeroes where we have 720p vs 1080p (a 2.25X difference).

1. I'm not trying to be rude, but on paper specs rarely tell the whole story. But if you are going to quote specs, why just the main RAM bandwidth? Surely that doesn't tell the whole story as far as memory bandwidth goes? There's supposedly high bandwidth RAM in both the 360 and Wii U. My understanding from various dev quotes is that the Wii Us setup allows for far greater uses of that RAM than the 360s due to its GPGPU nature and larger size. Also, I've never once read about a dev complaining of RAM bandwidth on the WIi U. They complain about a lot of other things like SDKs and lack of 'next gen power', but never the RAM bandwidth.

2. There's also worse performance in COD:AW and DAI according to Digital Foundry despite the slightly higher res. GTAV is a mixed bag depending on what's happening on screen and both run at native 1080p in that one. These latest round of games seem to indicate to me that the dev in the OP might actually know what he's talking about.



Nate4Drake said:
Techmaster said:
Wow this thread - so I should dismiss a game dev , you know a person who actually makes games on the system, who says that on paper spec's don't tell the full story , but instead listen to all the armchair fan boys who probably don't have a clue how either system really works but think they know better. wow

Tech is tech, if you have time you might read this http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/11/23/ps4-sdk-2-0-revealed-includes-a-lot-of-interesting-new-tech-and-features-game-developers-can-use/

Sometimes devs don't have yet enough resources and knowledge to push a new harware, and sometimes they make a statement to make everybody happy or because they were pushed by a Company to say so.  You don't know this ? It's a big surprise for you ?

Yes I have read that, but at this stage it just tech demo's, did you know about all those feature before that article? Do you think MS is sitting on their hands not improving their SDK or adding new features? Do we know "everything" about both consoles hardware?

All I have seen in the last 12 months is the XB1 software performance improve drastically from launch and the PS4 software performance stay pretty much the same.

I agree the PS4 GPU + Memory etc on paper is more powerful but I want to see it! I want to see games on the PS4 that the XB1 can't touch - I am looking forward to Sony's first party games next year, I want to see this extra power in real world games.



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nuckles87 said:
Nate4Drake said:
nuckles87 said:
Techmaster said:
Wow this thread - so I should dismiss a game dev , you know a person who actually makes games on the system, who says that on paper spec's don't tell the full story , but instead listen to all the armchair fan boys who probably don't have a clue how either system really works but think they know better. wow


Yes, because a fanboy emotionally invested in the outcome of an argument is FAR more reliable then a guy who makes games for a living. You don't know that?

Many developers did games and lied to the media or simply said something to be polite with everybody.  I'm not a fanboy if I say so right ?

I'm not a fanboy if I say that a Console with 50% more CUs count which can do both graphics and generic tasks and far more effective memory bandwidth is a more capable system in everything right ?  If I say 1+1 = 2 am I a fanboy ?


I don't really care if you're a fanboy. I'm not gonna judge you personally because of the technical jargon you type. If typing that stuff makes you feel confident in PS4's vast technical superiority, that's fine.

Fact of the matter is, I own both consoles and I've yet to see a game on the PS4 that looks noticeably better than anything on the One. Whenever anyone talks about technical differences it ALWAYS comes down to frame rate and resolution, and even there the differences aren't really noticeable to anyone but graphics junkies. I mean my god, when people were complaning about ACU's rumored graphical parity, their complaints literally came down to "PS4 SHOULD HAVE 1080P 60 FRAMES, NOT 900P 30 FRAMES". Not the vastness of the world, number of NPCs, quality of the textures, or anything. If that's all that 40 percent increase in power is capable of, I'm not sure it's really worth bragging about. XD

So, in the end, I'm more inclined to believe a guy who works on these consoles over people who throw numbers at me without context or visual proof that demonstrates any real world difference.

If you wanna believe a cat is strong as a tiger believe it, if a dev say so, I don't care mate :)  

Games like Uncharted4 will answer you.  



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

nuckles87 said:


I don't really care if you're a fanboy. I'm not gonna judge you personally because of the technical jargon you type. If typing that stuff makes you feel confident in PS4's vast technical superiority, that's fine.

Fact of the matter is, I own both consoles and I've yet to see a game on the PS4 that looks noticeably better than anything on the One. Whenever anyone talks about technical differences it ALWAYS comes down to frame rate and resolution, and even there the differences aren't really noticeable to anyone but graphics junkies. I mean my god, when people were complaning about ACU's rumored graphical parity, their complaints literally came down to "PS4 SHOULD HAVE 1080P 60 FRAMES, NOT 900P 30 FRAMES". Not the vastness of the world, number of NPCs, quality of the textures, or anything. If that's all that 40 percent increase in power is capable of, I'm not sure it's really worth bragging about. XD

So, in the end, I'm more inclined to believe a guy who works on these consoles over people who throw numbers at me without context or visual proof that demonstrates any real world difference.

@bolded, bravo. Could not have said it any better myself. All the talk of 50% more power and blah blah and the results thus far have been a resolution difference people wouldn't see without DigitalFoundry videos, some frame rate differences in a handful of games, and a toggle higher on the foliage setting in other games. Idk, it seems like it's not even as drastic a difference as some of the early to mid multiplatform games were on PS3 vs 360 last gen before developers caught up to the complexities of PS3.

But I agree, it's sad that the expectations for this supposed massive power difference is 1080p or bust. Not bigger worlds, not a revolution in AI, not higher NPC counts, etc etc. Oh the same game the 50% weaker console is getting is just fine, just make it a tad sharper please. I know Ubi did not optimize their game well at all, but it has been borderline depressing as a gamer to watch them be chastized for actually trying something that seemed next gen with their game, just because it resulted in dreaded 900p. Which, funny enough, if the Xbone version was 720p, then that 900p would have been just peachy.

But I hear Uncharted 4 will look amazing though.



Nate4Drake said:
nuckles87 said:
Nate4Drake said:
nuckles87 said:
Techmaster said:
Wow this thread - so I should dismiss a game dev , you know a person who actually makes games on the system, who says that on paper spec's don't tell the full story , but instead listen to all the armchair fan boys who probably don't have a clue how either system really works but think they know better. wow


Yes, because a fanboy emotionally invested in the outcome of an argument is FAR more reliable then a guy who makes games for a living. You don't know that?

Many developers did games and lied to the media or simply said something to be polite with everybody.  I'm not a fanboy if I say so right ?

I'm not a fanboy if I say that a Console with 50% more CUs count which can do both graphics and generic tasks and far more effective memory bandwidth is a more capable system in everything right ?  If I say 1+1 = 2 am I a fanboy ?


I don't really care if you're a fanboy. I'm not gonna judge you personally because of the technical jargon you type. If typing that stuff makes you feel confident in PS4's vast technical superiority, that's fine.

Fact of the matter is, I own both consoles and I've yet to see a game on the PS4 that looks noticeably better than anything on the One. Whenever anyone talks about technical differences it ALWAYS comes down to frame rate and resolution, and even there the differences aren't really noticeable to anyone but graphics junkies. I mean my god, when people were complaning about ACU's rumored graphical parity, their complaints literally came down to "PS4 SHOULD HAVE 1080P 60 FRAMES, NOT 900P 30 FRAMES". Not the vastness of the world, number of NPCs, quality of the textures, or anything. If that's all that 40 percent increase in power is capable of, I'm not sure it's really worth bragging about. XD

So, in the end, I'm more inclined to believe a guy who works on these consoles over people who throw numbers at me without context or visual proof that demonstrates any real world difference.

If you wanna believe a cat is strong as a tiger believe it, if a dev say so, I don't care mate :)  

Games like Uncharted4 will answer you.  

Hahaha, that is a really bad analogy. If the PS4 is a tiger, the Xbox One is anything but a cat. A male lion perhaps. A little weaker, but it gets pretty much the same results at the end of the day. To be completely honest, if your really serious about not being a fanboy, hyperbole like this doesn't exactly support that claim. XD

Going by the games that are actually out and what developrs have actually said, of course. If you want to name drop a game that was last shown well over a year before its release, fine, but trailers for games that far off aren't exactly known to be reliable anymore. But as a guy who's been gaming for twenty years and has had plenty of experience with retro consoles, let me tell you: if one console isn't demonstrating noticeable technical superiority in its first year with first party exclusive titles, the differences at the end of the generation will be neglible to the point of irrelevance. We have not seen that yet.



LudicrousSpeed said:
nuckles87 said:


I don't really care if you're a fanboy. I'm not gonna judge you personally because of the technical jargon you type. If typing that stuff makes you feel confident in PS4's vast technical superiority, that's fine.

Fact of the matter is, I own both consoles and I've yet to see a game on the PS4 that looks noticeably better than anything on the One. Whenever anyone talks about technical differences it ALWAYS comes down to frame rate and resolution, and even there the differences aren't really noticeable to anyone but graphics junkies. I mean my god, when people were complaning about ACU's rumored graphical parity, their complaints literally came down to "PS4 SHOULD HAVE 1080P 60 FRAMES, NOT 900P 30 FRAMES". Not the vastness of the world, number of NPCs, quality of the textures, or anything. If that's all that 40 percent increase in power is capable of, I'm not sure it's really worth bragging about. XD

So, in the end, I'm more inclined to believe a guy who works on these consoles over people who throw numbers at me without context or visual proof that demonstrates any real world difference.

@bolded, bravo. Could not have said it any better myself. All the talk of 50% more power and blah blah and the results thus far have been a resolution difference people wouldn't see without DigitalFoundry videos, some frame rate differences in a handful of games, and a toggle higher on the foliage setting in other games. Idk, it seems like it's not even as drastic a difference as some of the early to mid multiplatform games were on PS3 vs 360 last gen before developers caught up to the complexities of PS3.

But I agree, it's sad that the expectations for this supposed massive power difference is 1080p or bust. Not bigger worlds, not a revolution in AI, not higher NPC counts, etc etc. Oh the same game the 50% weaker console is getting is just fine, just make it a tad sharper please. I know Ubi did not optimize their game well at all, but it has been borderline depressing as a gamer to watch them be chastized for actually trying something that seemed next gen with their game, just because it resulted in dreaded 900p. Which, funny enough, if the Xbone version was 720p, then that 900p would have been just peachy.

But I hear Uncharted 4 will look amazing though.

And you are expecting big differences in 1st generation multiplatform games and cross-gen games ? :) Most 3rd party developers only care about profit, they will never push all platforms, they will never take full advantage of all hardware, most of all at this stage, this is why what you have is just higher resolution on PS4.  Do you know how long it takes to develop a great game ?  2,3 even 4 years.  Some of you speak like PS4 and XOne are out since 3 or 4 years and you look surprised that PS4 can 'just' do the same multi-platform/cross-gen title with better graphics/IQ with even more details in some cases(GTAV) ?!

Look at Dragon Age : Inquisition, by Bioware, which are very good 3rd Party developers; they managed to have higher Resolution on PS4 with better IQ, better texture quality and filtering, and more stable frame rate in intense situations; what do you want from a 1st generation 3rd party cross-platform game ?! Do you want more than this ?

 ''That brings us to the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One versions of Dragon Age Inquisition. Bioware have utilized the more powerful GPU of the PlayStation 4 to push out a 1080p screen resolution whereas the Xbox One version runs at 900p. This immediately results into a crisper and cleaner image on the PlayStation 4 version. Both the PS4 and Xbox One versions are no where close to the Ultra setting on the PC but they are definitely very close to the High settings found in the PC version.

Furthermore, the game runs at 30 frames per second most of the times on the PS4 and Xbox One versions. But during our tests we found out that in intense situations the PS4 version has an advantage over the Xbox One. Another advantage that we noticed is the level of detail [LOD] in the PS4 version is slightly superior resulting into better texture quality and filtering.''

http://gamingbolt.com/dragon-age-inquisition-visual-analysis-ps4-vs-xbox-one-vs-pc-ps3-vs-xbox-360


Uncharted4, to name one, will be the 1st example of PS4 good coding, and it will blow you away. Then wait the second Game by Naughty Dog on PS4 and you will cry. The games are not self-programmed, they need so much time, as you need so much more time to squeeze a new piece of hardware. This happens any new Gen, it happened with PS2/GC/XBox, with PS3/360, and it will be the same for the current generation.

1st Party developers are the ones who will show you what a Console can do, not most of 3rd party developers who do not care at all to waste money to push each version for every console. 

Specs are specs, hardware is there, it does not change. PS4 is a superior Console(Hardware), and anybody with a minimum understanding don't get fooled by every comment by every biased or non biased developer who want some visibility, or want people talking about you(like we are doing) or simply wanna be polite with everybody; If you say something completely wrong, you said it, it doesn't matter if you are a developer, or a publisher, or a user.  

This article is garbage from a technical point of you, ask everybody who has some understanding.  

I'm not saying this devs can't produce a good game or I'm a better developer, simply that their comments are a joke. The end.



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

JazzB1987 said:
radha said:
the best part it that naughty dog will develop for the most powerful one and will optimise like crazy.


They do make PC games? Nice.


What is a PC?



dd if = /dev/brain | tail -f | grep games | nc -lnvvp 80

Hey Listen!

https://archive.org/details/kohina_radio_music_collection