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Forums - General - I don't see how humans can lose to zombies.

bugrimmar said:


You're forgetting that the military has unmanned drones. With drones, things can all be done remotely, drawing in, bombing, rinse and repeat. The drone itself can be the one doing the bombing too.

Don't forget that we're dealing with a stupid enemy. An enemy that can't think and an enemy that can't understand what an ambush is. They see a machine gun bunker, they'll just run straight at it. Do you think that zombies understand siege warfare? No, they'll just keep running into a meat grinder if they see something to eat in there. You want this even easier? Lay land mines all over the place and just put a piece of meat 100 feet behind them and watch the zombies slaughter themselves.

Just remember, the enemy is mindless and will just go forward. They don't have strategy and they can't understand when strategy is being used against them. Don't think as if the zombies will fight humans the way humans will fight humans. Think of them as wild animals.. Humans tamed them a long time ago. Before, they were dangerous. Now, any guy with a hunting rifle can just lay the smack down on even the fiercest king of the jungle. Why is that? Because wild animals can't think of strategy.

Drones.. they can fly themself? refuel themself? re arm themselfs? how many people can control a drone? the human part of the military is the weakest point of it all.. they need food, they need water.. they need ammo.. a lot of countries don't even have landmines.. so you kill some zombies with the landmines at the first wave, who is gonna go outside to put down the mines for the second, third, fourth wave?

With the massive amount of zombies they don't need strategy. Military would always have to set priorities. they don't have the numbers. Are you gonna refuel a drone, a fighterplane or a troop transport plane, are you bringing ammo to New York or Los Angeles. Are the soldiers gonna protect the base, a hospital or a school.






 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!) 

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It all depends on how the virus or spores or whatever are transmitted and how contagious it is and the initial response to an outbreak.



bugrimmar said:
NiKKoM said:
bugrimmar said:

I think you're underestimating the firepower that our weapons can do.

A tank shell won't just pop a limb or two. It will completely destroy a body and send its parts in 50 different places. Have you seen how big a tank shell is? A jet with a 100 ton payload will not just cause shrapnel. It will freaking disintegrate whole populations with a carpet bomb. Have you not seen how much devastation that can cause?

It's like you're thinking about toys.. I don't understand your logic. A shell from a battleship will level a freaking building, and it can't kill a zombie? Jesus, that's just crazy thinking. A stealth bomber would reduce a stadium into rubble that is barely recognizable.

Tell me you aren't serious about what you're saying. I can't even find enough words to say how ridiculous your statement is.


A tank shell doesn't detonate on impact with a human.. Tank shells aren't anti personel weapons..  it rips through a crowd of zombies who will still be functional with a hole through their bodies..  There are shotgun like shells, Flechette shells, but they are banned, only Israel still uses them..

Still the best the army could do is defend themself and not save the entire world, there is just not enough military personel to do that. Sure a Battleship can clear the first wave but then it would be dead on the water cause their supply base would be overcrowded by too many ships who are trying to resupply and too many zombies who are attacking.. then what? The Military supply isn't endless while the zombies pretty much are.


So you're assuming these tank shells, which can come from say, a thousand tanks, will never hit a single zombie head? And assuming they don't, you're assuming that a zombie without legs or arms can still be dangerous?

Your assumptions also seem to say that ships and armies need to resupply every day, and that's simply not the case. Take WW2 for example. Iwo Jima took 10 freaking days of non-stop bombardment before the troops landed. Do you think the ships had to go back and forth to base in order to do that? The nearest base must've been a thousand miles way. And remember, that was more than 60 years ago. The military's resupply methods and weapons systems have only since improved a hundredfold. For instance, a single nuclear powered aircraft carrier has enough juice to never resupply for up to 25 years.

And zombies aren't endless. Remember, zombies are only the weird remains of humans. There are only 7 billion people in the world, so there's a maximum of 7 billion zombies to kill. However, we're also saying that a human population exists to fight them, surely a whole lot of people are dead and not able to come back, and a lot of those people are children/elderly/disabled so it's likely to be a lot less than 7 billion.

Probably 3-4 billion bodies at maximum, and a single MOAB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast) can wipe out hundreds of thousands of bodies by itself. We're talking 11 freaking tons of TNT and the military has 15 of these bad boys. Not to mention the thousands upon thousands of other conventional bombs that the military has in possession (I'm removing nuclear weapons from the equation, but if the military wanted to, they can use them). You gonna tell me that these things won't destroy zombies? Sheesh, these things destroy COUNTRIES. You gonna tell me the military will run out of bombs? Impossible. There're enough conventional bombs in the world to wipe out the whole human population ten times over.

And your resupply argument doesn't make any sense. The troops deployed in Iraq don't need to come back to the US to get new bombs and bullets. They bring enough to start armaggeddon and can get airdrops daily for fresh supplies.

Bombing is very inefficient against population, and mostly used against factories, military offices, or as a psychological warfare against population. I think you don't really understand how much tons it takes. Allies sent 1,500,000 tons on Germany alone. Just think about your "freaking" 11 tons bombs... 15 of them. So, about 1,500,000 tons on Germany, and I don't think it even killed 1 million people. OK, germans could hide better than zombies, but they were easier target in cities than zombies spreading and around civilians you don't want to kill. Vietnam took 7 millions tons and ended by a loss. How many billions tons, and for what consequences ? And, when do you start abandonning the idea of preserving your population, city, facilities ? Before, or after the first billion ?



bugrimmar said:


It is all in good fun :P

My whole argument centers around the fact that zombies aren't smart. They're mindless bodies that can be drawn into one area and destroyed. Just tie a piece of meat to a robotic drone and have it run around in circles. Then when the zombies start to swarm around it, drop some shells all over the place. This tactic can be easily done over and over again because zombies can't think and can't digest the fact that they're being tricked. Factor that into the equation and you'll see that it's really so easy for humans to win.


oh and I certainly agree, zombies are mindless beings and I'm ceratin the the average adult would dispacth of them easly, and I agree with you premise that humans won't "lose" to zombies as in there won't be 7 billion zombies roaming earth. my arguement is(and maybe off topic but) there's only so much you can do to contain a virus, it's simple biology once a virus is created; it can never be completely eradicated(as of yet)  viruses are know to mutating and adpating, it could lay dormant in one species but be highly contagious to another i.e.  the real life spores ND used to make TLOU;  doesn't affect human or any other animals but higly contagious for most bugs.

I hate to keep using TLOU/WD but they show a perfect example that humans can reach a level of "Staus quo" they have cites and their own authoritative force, I think were you and I differ is our belief in our militarys might to get the job done, going by wiki our total military we have approx.  2.2 million(active and reserve) and thow in 800,000 cops(again from wiki) you have approx 3 mil which equates for about 1% of the US population, heaven forbid we bring in canada and mexico into the equation.(as I'm sure border security would be the last thing on people mind)



NiKKoM said:
bugrimmar said:


You're forgetting that the military has unmanned drones. With drones, things can all be done remotely, drawing in, bombing, rinse and repeat. The drone itself can be the one doing the bombing too.

Don't forget that we're dealing with a stupid enemy. An enemy that can't think and an enemy that can't understand what an ambush is. They see a machine gun bunker, they'll just run straight at it. Do you think that zombies understand siege warfare? No, they'll just keep running into a meat grinder if they see something to eat in there. You want this even easier? Lay land mines all over the place and just put a piece of meat 100 feet behind them and watch the zombies slaughter themselves.

Just remember, the enemy is mindless and will just go forward. They don't have strategy and they can't understand when strategy is being used against them. Don't think as if the zombies will fight humans the way humans will fight humans. Think of them as wild animals.. Humans tamed them a long time ago. Before, they were dangerous. Now, any guy with a hunting rifle can just lay the smack down on even the fiercest king of the jungle. Why is that? Because wild animals can't think of strategy.

Drones.. they can fly themself? refuel themself? re arm themselfs? how many people can control a drone? the human part of the military is the weakest point of it all.. they need food, they need water.. they need ammo.. a lot of countries don't even have landmines.. so you kill some zombies with the landmines at the first wave, who is gonna go outside to put down the mines for the second, third, fourth wave?

With the massive amount of zombies they don't need strategy. Military would always have to set priorities. they don't have the numbers. Are you gonna refuel a drone, a fighterplane or a troop transport plane, are you bringing ammo to New York or Los Angeles. Are the soldiers gonna protect the base, a hospital or a school.





Again, you revert to the supply argument. As I said before, this war wouldn't last long because of how easily susceptible the enemy is to even the simplest strategies. The supply argument is valid, but only if the war is a war of attrition. However, if the enemy can be drawn so easily, supply won't be an issue.

What about you try and go against my main argument, that zombies are mindless and are therefore very easily taken by ambushes and human strategic capacity? I've answered those same points you raised over and over again already.



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Norris2k said:

Bombing is very inefficient against population, and mostly used against factories, military offices, or as a psychological warfare against population. I think you don't really understand how much tons it takes. Allies sent 1,500,000 tons on Germany alone. Just think about your "freaking" 11 tons bombs... 15 of them. So, about 1,500,000 tons on Germany, and I don't think it even killed 1 million people. OK, germans could hide better than zombies, but they were easier target in cities than zombies spreading and around civilians you don't want to kill. Vietnam took 7 millions tons and ended by a loss. How many billions tons, and for what consequences ? And, when do you start abandonning the idea of preserving your population, city, facilities ? Before, or after the first billion ?


Um.. Humans hide in buildings, hide in underground bunkers, hide in fallout shelters... Do zombies hide? No, they just run at you.. That's the point of this whole thing. Zombies in open field + a huge bomb = death to all zombies.



arcane_chaos said:
bugrimmar said:


It is all in good fun :P

My whole argument centers around the fact that zombies aren't smart. They're mindless bodies that can be drawn into one area and destroyed. Just tie a piece of meat to a robotic drone and have it run around in circles. Then when the zombies start to swarm around it, drop some shells all over the place. This tactic can be easily done over and over again because zombies can't think and can't digest the fact that they're being tricked. Factor that into the equation and you'll see that it's really so easy for humans to win.


oh and I certainly agree, zombies are mindless beings and I'm ceratin the the average adult would dispacth of them easly, and I agree with you premise that humans won't "lose" to zombies as in there won't be 7 billion zombies roaming earth. my arguement is(and maybe off topic but) there's only so much you can do to contain a virus, it's simple biology once a virus is created; it can never be completely eradicated(as of yet)  viruses are know to mutating and adpating, it could lay dormant in one species but be highly contagious to another i.e.  the real life spores ND used to make TLOU;  doesn't affect human or any other animals but higly contagious for most bugs.

I hate to keep using TLOU/WD but they show a perfect example that humans can reach a level of "Staus quo" they have cites and their own authoritative force, I think were you and I differ is our belief in our militarys might to get the job done, going by wiki our total military we have approx.  2.2 million(active and reserve) and thow in 800,000 cops(again from wiki) you have approx 3 mil which equates for about 1% of the US population, heaven forbid we bring in canada and mexico into the equation.(as I'm sure border security would be the last thing on people mind)

Numbers of soldiers aren't necessary. Think of it this way. North Korea has a larger standing army than the US. But who do you think would win?

Again, my argument centers around our military technology. Our capability to destroy huge populations without even a pair of boots touching the ground.



bugrimmar said:
NiKKoM said:

Drones.. they can fly themself? refuel themself? re arm themselfs? how many people can control a drone? the human part of the military is the weakest point of it all.. they need food, they need water.. they need ammo.. a lot of countries don't even have landmines.. so you kill some zombies with the landmines at the first wave, who is gonna go outside to put down the mines for the second, third, fourth wave?

With the massive amount of zombies they don't need strategy. Military would always have to set priorities. they don't have the numbers. Are you gonna refuel a drone, a fighterplane or a troop transport plane, are you bringing ammo to New York or Los Angeles. Are the soldiers gonna protect the base, a hospital or a school.





Again, you revert to the supply argument. As I said before, this war wouldn't last long because of how easily susceptible the enemy is to even the simplest strategies. The supply argument is valid, but only if the war is a war of attrition. However, if the enemy can be drawn so easily, supply won't be an issue.

What about you try and go against my main argument, that zombies are mindless and are therefore very easily taken by ambushes and human strategic capacity? I've answered those same points you raised over and over again already.

24 hours non stop brainless attack from zombies.. Thats their strategy right? How can you stop that with your tactics? The amount of zombies will overwell any strategy you can think of cause the army doesn't have the manpower.. How many fighterplanes are standby in the us? 20.. Good luck getting the fuel to get the rest in operational mode, and hope that the pilots and support staff will get safely to base.. How can a human fight 24 hours straight? For days and days? Humans get tired, our are you suggesting taking shifts? Cut away two thirds of your manpower? That ain't gonna work.. You won't have the ammo, food and you need to shit and piss in your pants.. Ambushes? Like you said you would put mines there but guess what? You can't reuse them.. The first 10 zombies wil be blown up but what about the 10000 behind those first 10.. Gonna run out to reset the ambush? For days? If Thats your human strategic capacity it not good.. Supply will be an issue.. In every war supply is an issue.. 

With all our human strategic capacity we can't even stop a tidal wave. Whats a tank gonna do? Whats an ambush gonna do? Against a tidal wave?



 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!) 

bugrimmar said:
arcane_chaos said:
bugrimmar said:


It is all in good fun :P

My whole argument centers around the fact that zombies aren't smart. They're mindless bodies that can be drawn into one area and destroyed. Just tie a piece of meat to a robotic drone and have it run around in circles. Then when the zombies start to swarm around it, drop some shells all over the place. This tactic can be easily done over and over again because zombies can't think and can't digest the fact that they're being tricked. Factor that into the equation and you'll see that it's really so easy for humans to win.


oh and I certainly agree, zombies are mindless beings and I'm ceratin the the average adult would dispacth of them easly, and I agree with you premise that humans won't "lose" to zombies as in there won't be 7 billion zombies roaming earth. my arguement is(and maybe off topic but) there's only so much you can do to contain a virus, it's simple biology once a virus is created; it can never be completely eradicated(as of yet)  viruses are know to mutating and adpating, it could lay dormant in one species but be highly contagious to another i.e.  the real life spores ND used to make TLOU;  doesn't affect human or any other animals but higly contagious for most bugs.

I hate to keep using TLOU/WD but they show a perfect example that humans can reach a level of "Staus quo" they have cites and their own authoritative force, I think were you and I differ is our belief in our militarys might to get the job done, going by wiki our total military we have approx.  2.2 million(active and reserve) and thow in 800,000 cops(again from wiki) you have approx 3 mil which equates for about 1% of the US population, heaven forbid we bring in canada and mexico into the equation.(as I'm sure border security would be the last thing on people mind)

Numbers of soldiers aren't necessary. Think of it this way. North Korea has a larger standing army than the US. But who do you think would win?

Again, my argument centers around our military technology. Our capability to destroy huge populations without even a pair of boots touching the ground.


but you're only seeing the situation from a military aspect and there's more to that in a zombie outbreak than just dropping bombs and hoping  that  it will solve the problem. how would one know were to drop a precise bomb strike if no one is on the ground? how would you know who's infected or not within the city? are you willing to risk human lives to kill zombies? are you willing to lay waste to farmlands and other sources of food, medicine & engery? Lets say an outbreak started in NYC, would you just bomb it know you'e be potentially killing 8.4 million people? Again I have no quam with you saying that we have very effective means to killing massive amount of zombies but do you actually think just dropping bombs where ever it seems fit is the only solution?

sure the initial impact will kill many zombies assuming some survive, they won't feel it, they won't die from blood lost, ruptured organs or a missing limbs. zombies feel no pain or have  no emotion, they don't tire and only have only goal; and that's to eat you alive. though we only have movies to portray this but there's always a scene(mostly in the beginning) were we have army soldier armed to the teeth falling in  minutes to a wave of zombies, and they're usualy the slow moving ones, heaven forbid that they turn out like the ones from Dawn of the Dead or World War Z, you'd be dead in seconds. 



bugrimmar said:
Norris2k said:

Bombing is very inefficient against population, and mostly used against factories, military offices, or as a psychological warfare against population. I think you don't really understand how much tons it takes. Allies sent 1,500,000 tons on Germany alone. Just think about your "freaking" 11 tons bombs... 15 of them. So, about 1,500,000 tons on Germany, and I don't think it even killed 1 million people. OK, germans could hide better than zombies, but they were easier target in cities than zombies spreading and around civilians you don't want to kill. Vietnam took 7 millions tons and ended by a loss. How many billions tons, and for what consequences ? And, when do you start abandonning the idea of preserving your population, city, facilities ? Before, or after the first billion ?


Um.. Humans hide in buildings, hide in underground bunkers, hide in fallout shelters... Do zombies hide? No, they just run at you.. That's the point of this whole thing. Zombies in open field + a huge bomb = death to all zombies.

They randomely "hide", they spread, they don't die from wounds, I still think you would have an long and hard time. Also, again, it's not just about firepower (million of tons of TNT equivalent), but how much you can use it inside your own country (civilian casualties, especially if human being became rare), when you start bombinb ("let's just bomb new york, don't care about collateral damages, maximum damages"), and how much it's efficient (and I think it's not su much) But who knows ? lol Anyway, building walls, and an army in integral kevlar suit, firepower etc, I also believe the humankind (the non zombie part of it) would prevail.