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reggin_bolas said:
Conina said:
reggin_bolas said:elieve it or not but PC's have a greater failure rate and are more expensive to replace than consoles. The Rrod being an anomaly of course.

The only PC parts I had to replace in the last decade due to failure were my BD/DVD-ROM (20 €) an my good'old Microsoft-Habu-mouse after 8 years... the new mouse costed 25 € and is even much better than the old one.

And a replacement of a broken optical drive in a console is much costlier than in a modualr PC.


You're lucky then. I bought a toshiba laptop meant for gaming for 1600 dollars. Its harddrive failed within 2 years and it would have cost approximately 600 dollars to repair it. By then I was better off to buy a new one because it was becoming obsolete anyway. 

My current mid-end pc laptop cost 1000 from asus. Windows has some corrupt files which makes it impossible for me to download the latest windows installer for windows update. The stupid tech at MS strong armed to pay 100 dollars to fix their crappy windows service. No thanks, I'd rather play it until it breaks which might happen any day.

That's over 2000 dollars over the span of approximately 4 years. Absurd. 

 

 

 

I build my own computers, have done for over 15 years.Never had these problems.No self respecting gamer buys an off the shelf PC.



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Conina said:
MDMAlliance said:
It's as if anytime anyone says something in the Consoles vs PC area, it has to be a challenge.

What do you expect in a thread called "consoles VERSUS PC", followed by many comparisons between PCs and consoles?

A thread called "Consoles and PCs, both have their advantages and disadvantages" or "Consoles and PCs, together in harmony" or something like that wouldn't aggregate so many people (of both sides). ;)


But that's illustrating the point, that whenever people see it they automatically take it as a challenge, even if the challenge isn't there.



Sentient_Nebula said:
I definitely agree with what you're saying. But it makes sense that consoles are generally preferred over PC, for the reasons you described.

Consoles are aimed at the average consumer. But most "enthusiast" gamers prefer PC, mainly because it gives you much more freedom and more options (The better graphics is only one of many reasons people like PC over console). It's easy to justify the extra upfront cost for these reasons.

The "average consumer" market will always be larger than the enthusiast one. And that's why consoles and console games are always more prolific.

What's an "enthusiast" gamer?

Gaming is my main hobby. I spend a few hours gaming every night in my home theater. Still I prefer to play on a console. It gives me the most time to spend gaming, the least spend on anything else. I would say anyone spending any time on a message board like this is an enthusiast gamer...

The average consumer mostly plays on laptops, tablets, smart phones, and pc ;)

@Nettles Seems I don't have any self respect either :) I will buy an off the shelf pc again down the line for OR or to go with a 4k projector. I don't mind spending a bit more. I used to mess around with pcs, nowadays my time is worth more than the extra cost. (And yes I have had problems with self builds like burned out gpus)



SvennoJ said:

What's an "enthusiast" gamer?

Gaming is my main hobby. I spend a few hours gaming every night in my home theater. Still I prefer to play on a console. It gives me the most time to spend gaming, the least spend on anything else. I would say anyone spending any time on a message board like this is an enthusiast gamer...

The average consumer mostly plays on laptops, tablets, smart phones, and pc ;)

@Nettles Seems I don't have any self respect either :) I will buy an off the shelf pc again down the line for OR or to go with a 4k projector. I don't mind spending a bit more. I used to mess around with pcs, nowadays my time is worth more than the extra cost. (And yes I have had problems with self builds like burned out gpus)

I game on a projector too, and on an ambient light rejecting 110" Black screen I designed and built. Mostly with help from AVS forums. This way the screen itself is Black and I can use it even if the room is flooded with light. So I have it setup in my living room. Its a beauty. Honestly I don't understand how anyone can't or deosn't jump onto projectors. My PJ cost me around $800 and the screen I made cost me around $150. I too will not be upgrading to 4k until teher is a 4k projector I can afford. 

I have a ridiculously powerful RIG that I am increasingly using less and less of every passing day. Now its basically exclusively a work machine. I just prefer being in my living room than being in an office/Pc room i guess. Now all my browsing and PC stuff is done on a surface tablet. I even use a wireless HDD that sits in the PC room downloading all my stuff and go onto access its content from a small HTPC connected to the projector. Now only if the PS4 supports DLNA or can access my HDD wirelessly too.



SvennoJ said:
Sentient_Nebula said:
I definitely agree with what you're saying. But it makes sense that consoles are generally preferred over PC, for the reasons you described.

Consoles are aimed at the average consumer. But most "enthusiast" gamers prefer PC, mainly because it gives you much more freedom and more options (The better graphics is only one of many reasons people like PC over console). It's easy to justify the extra upfront cost for these reasons.

The "average consumer" market will always be larger than the enthusiast one. And that's why consoles and console games are always more prolific.

What's an "enthusiast" gamer?

Gaming is my main hobby. I spend a few hours gaming every night in my home theater. Still I prefer to play on a console. It gives me the most time to spend gaming, the least spend on anything else. I would say anyone spending any time on a message board like this is an enthusiast gamer...

The average consumer mostly plays on laptops, tablets, smart phones, and pc ;)

@Nettles Seems I don't have any self respect either :) I will buy an off the shelf pc again down the line for OR or to go with a 4k projector. I don't mind spending a bit more. I used to mess around with pcs, nowadays my time is worth more than the extra cost. (And yes I have had problems with self builds like burned out gpus)

Yeah, I guess you're right. Maybe I'm thinking this a bit wrong. You're right that (These days at least) most people who play games, play them on mobile devices, particularly smartphones and tablets. Maybe I'm still living in 2004.

Thinking it through a bit more, consoles seem best suited to that area between casual and hardcore (I've heard people call it the "softcore" crowd): Those who want a "true" gaming experience, but aren't willing to spend a massive amount of money on their hobby. Many people will only own one console, with the enthusiasts usually owning multiple or all of them.



"Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

-Samuel Clemens

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daredevil.shark said:
I will always choose consoles. No need to upgrade and I am not a graphics junkie. Plus those shiny exclusives do their part.


And if someone was raised up as a little kid console gaming (I was 6 when my mom bought me an NES in 1986), there is something abstract about console gaming that you can't get out of your DNA. I have Steam and own a few games for it but hardly even open the thing because there is just something... missing. 



Intrinsic said:
SvennoJ said:

What's an "enthusiast" gamer?

Gaming is my main hobby. I spend a few hours gaming every night in my home theater. Still I prefer to play on a console. It gives me the most time to spend gaming, the least spend on anything else. I would say anyone spending any time on a message board like this is an enthusiast gamer...

The average consumer mostly plays on laptops, tablets, smart phones, and pc ;)

@Nettles Seems I don't have any self respect either :) I will buy an off the shelf pc again down the line for OR or to go with a 4k projector. I don't mind spending a bit more. I used to mess around with pcs, nowadays my time is worth more than the extra cost. (And yes I have had problems with self builds like burned out gpus)

I game on a projector too, and on an ambient light rejecting 110" Black screen I designed and built. Mostly with help from AVS forums. This way the screen itself is Black and I can use it even if the room is flooded with light. So I have it setup in my living room. Its a beauty. Honestly I don't understand how anyone can't or deosn't jump onto projectors. My PJ cost me around $800 and the screen I made cost me around $150. I too will not be upgrading to 4k until teher is a 4k projector I can afford. 

I have a ridiculously powerful RIG that I am increasingly using less and less of every passing day. Now its basically exclusively a work machine. I just prefer being in my living room than being in an office/Pc room i guess. Now all my browsing and PC stuff is done on a surface tablet. I even use a wireless HDD that sits in the PC room downloading all my stuff and go onto access its content from a small HTPC connected to the projector. Now only if the PS4 supports DLNA or can access my HDD wirelessly too.

Awesome! I went the other way and designed a room around the screen. We had just bought a new house with an unfinished ground floor with high ceiling, perfect time to make everything exact to measurements with all the cables in the walls. Black wooden floor, black ceiling, dark red walls to keep ambient light under control. I prefer to play in the dark, nothing but the big screen in your field of view.

I have the same thing with PC. Used to be my primary for games, but it will forever be associated with work for me, and therefore not as relaxing as playing on a console. With a 4K upgrade I'll buy a separate pc, keep it exclusive for gaming.

Anyway projector first, pc second. What's the point of all that power if you're going to watch it on a monitor :)



Sentient_Nebula said:

Yeah, I guess you're right. Maybe I'm thinking this a bit wrong. You're right that (These days at least) most people who play games, play them on mobile devices, particularly smartphones and tablets. Maybe I'm still living in 2004.

Thinking it through a bit more, consoles seem best suited to that area between casual and hardcore (I've heard people call it the "softcore" crowd): Those who want a "true" gaming experience, but aren't willing to spend a massive amount of money on their hobby. Many people will only own one console, with the enthusiasts usually owning multiple or all of them.

I'm fine with lazy enthusiast gamer :p

I do spend way too much on gaming, just not interested anymore in hunting gpus and optimal configurations. I get it, it's a fun part of the hobby too, following gpu advancements, checking weekly for new beta drivers, tweaking settings, modding, etc. It's a different part of the experience.
It's just amusing that some people seem to consider themselves better gamers because of that, like they made the games themselves... And every new game that comes out it's nothing but complaints about the unoptimized mess, followed by boasting how much better it runs than on consoles. Which is it... PC games intentionally held back to make the console version look better, that was a good laugh.



Intrinsic said:
  1. HARDWARE
    Ignoring the display. Lets start with what is in the box. For consoles, you go out and spend $350-$400 for a box that comes with a console, an OS, a controller, a HDMI cable, power cable, disc drive and a headset (and maybe a free game). Then you connect that box to your TV. If anyone will be comparing a PC to a console, shoudn't it only be fair to compare a PC that cost just as much and will give you the exact same things in the box? A PC that will come with at least a mouse/keyboard or a controller, a video cable, disc drive and an OS. For the exact same price of $350-$400.

  2. PERFORMANCE
    This ties directly into the above point. If I spend $1000 on a GPU alone. It sure as hell will out perform a GPU that costs $400 or even a GPU that costs $200. I think this is something any PC gamer can relate with. It would be a special kinda stupid to expect a $200GPU to perform as well as a $1000 or even a $3000 GPU. So if screenshots of PC games are put up for the sole purpose of comparing them to consoles, shouldn't the PC in question generating the in game screen shot be at least similarly priced to the console in question. Cause at the end of the day the real comparison is what you can get for your money. If you are comparing the performance of something that costs 4 times more than a console then doesn't that defeat the purpose? Thats like trying to drag race a honda civic with an enzo ferrari.

  3. CONSUMER TYPE
    There is a very very big difference between a hardcore PC gamer and a console gamer. Put simply, a console gamer just wants ease of access. A box they just buy and plug into their TV. A box that will do everything for them that needs to be done to run the game. So if a PC gamer is going to argue with a console gamer, shouldn't they at least consider that that console gamer is most likely not willing or interested in doing all the things that you may have to do to get a great PC rig at the afore mentioned $350-$400. Like scrounge for used/refurbished parts.. basically build your own RIG. These are ppl that wanna just go and buy a box that works. What sense does it now make to start a PC argument by "you can BUILD a system better than that with teh same amount of money if you are willing to get a little creative or resourceful".

    I also think that some PC gamers can be obnoxious. Cause they act like a consumer wnting to spend what he/she deems is all they need to spend for their gaming is stupid. Some people want to spend $350-$400 for a console. Some people are willing to spend way more for a PC if need be. Whats wrong with any of that?

 

1. HARDWARE - You must add on the cost of subscription services for consoles in order to play online - such as PSN and XBL. Also consider the price of games on PC is $10 cheaper for a new release and often you can get games for half that only a few months later in steam deals. Additionally, with PC you get a more useful/versatile OS, more general purposed hardware and you also are capable of upgrading for a small price in the nearer future as opposed to waiting for a new console to release. There are advantages and disadvantages with a PC. Usually the initial cost is higher (I have a budget PC I built for $500 that plays games at a reasonably better speed than consoles.) Also, add the taxrate to your console (Newegg doesn't have taxes for most states) and the price is very similar. Some GPUs even come with free games, my R9 280x came with three free games of my choosing. 

2. PERFORMANCE - Not only do I get better gaming performance with a budget build PC, I also get better general performance in everything from video editing, to streaming, to youtube play. It is more reasonable to add the cost of your non-gaming PC and your console if we are discussing functionality/cost. I think it is fair to add at least $200 on the cost of the console with the performance ratio because you must consider that somebody will need a new PC eventually anyway. 

3. CONSUMER TYPE - Won't disagree much here, but with each generation consoles are getting many of the same problems as PCs (see: updates, firmware patches, online drms, etc, etc)  and PC's are becoming more friendly toward the average consumer (see: steamOS/big picture mode.) 



Intrinsic said:

 

  1. Hope you aren't one of those types that will just find something to argue about even when there is none. but I don't know what to say about this. If what you are saying is true, then how come is it that this is the first time that consoles are using hardware that is practically identical to a CPU. Should we assume that things like the Cell processor didn't need the PC? All tech feeds off eachother. 

 


I'm sorry, what?
You do realise the Cell wasn't actually that powerful overall, it was a cheap CPU design with a ton a flaws, it did have some good points however, not all of which related to gaming.

With that in mind, Cell was PowerPC based design, owned by IBM, when someone generally refers to the PC they think of x86 Intel/AMD based (And in some cases Via.)
However, the graphics processor in the Playstation 3 was not a custom design, it is PC hardware, developed by nVidia, thus without the PC, the Playstation 3 would have been a very different machine, same with the origional Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, Playstation 4.
Sony can't afford to build fully custom hardware for it's machines, in-fact it's proved it's not always good at it either.
Microsoft also saw the cost benefits of going with hardware that's essentially already been "subsidised" by PC gamers, who have essentially funded high-end GPU development over the decades.

Intrinsic said:

These are the exactkinda semantics that PC gamers bring into every argument. The cost of games is irrelevant. In the very same way some can choose to go and watch a movie at the theatre and some can choose to pirate it for free. The cost of services are also irrelevant. And the reason for all this is cause you are assuming that majority of the people out there would even bother taking these things into consideration. I parent doesn't buy a PS4 for their kid thinking about how it could be cheaper buying games on the PC. Those things are just not anywhere near as important as you make them out to be. This is about the cost of entry. How much does it cost to buy the hardware that you plug into your TV. When a PC gamer is comparing a screenshot of a game running on PC to one running on consoles, the price of the game is irrelevant at that point.

 

So... No cost analysis then? To be expected I suppose.
Keep in mind, you brought up costs and now that there are other facets to costs, now you wish to deflect it?

Keep in mind, plenty of parents get a PC for their children rather than a console, especially in Asia.
Did you know that in the last 9 months Steam has grown in active users faster than Sony and Microsoft combined can shift their new consoles? You think those are all pimply teenage boys? The demographics may surprise you.

Intrinsic said:

So in all fairness, if you are going to comapre how much it cost to buy a console to a PC, you should simply only be talking about the cost of the hardware itself. If you have to start talking about things that only someone that the avergae joe couldn't care less about, then you have already started going off point. And this is the inherent problem with PC gamers. They seem to think everyone thinks like them or is them. I can get a white fruit of the loom t shirt for as little as $2. That doesn't mean I still won't buy a similar one that may even be less quality for $10 from ralph lauren.

All this stuff about paywalls and Pc games being cheaper over this or that amount of time is simply irrelevant. If gamers can't afford to buy 10 console games/year but have a console then they would buy 3. If they can't afford to pay for online play then they wouldn't. its that simple. In the very same way that if they can't afford to spend $1000 on a PC then they wouldn't. Its all about choices and options. And cause you or some does one thing doesn't mean thats what everyone else should do.

 


The ENTIRE point is (And please stop deflecting/changing the argument) was how much cheaper consoles were to a PC, well guess what? It's actually not if you cared to do a proper costing breakdown over a long term.


Intrinsic said:

What is required to make an unbiased fair comparison isn't complicated at all. But a lot of PC gamers have this way of complicating everything. I think its in their nature. Its really simple. To make a fair comaprison. Take a $350/$400 console. With everything thats in it. Then take a $350/$400 PC. With at least similar components. An OS, HDD, input interface (controller, be it KB&M or controller), blu-ray drive..etc. Basically everything that you would get in that $350-$400 console box. Then you can compare the games running on those platforms together. Its really that simple. And I don't understand why it has to be any more complicated than that. Next year, when consoles cost $250-$300, if you are going to compare a MP game to the console, then again, you take a PC that costs $250-$300. Its really really simple logic if you ask me.

If I were to use that kind of logic I would be claiming how expensive the Playstation 4 is compared to a Playstation 3, plus the Playstation 4 can't have similar components as the Playstation 3 and doesn't even have 1/10th the games.

This is the kind of "logic" you're throwing at PC gamers.

Intrinsic said:


You are exagerating. Even if you do not have an internet connection on a console, and you buy a game. You can still just put it into your console and play it. Have you thought about something, do you know its not even possible to get games for a PC anymore without an internet connection of some sort?

Actually, when I bought my Xbox One, that would have been impossible, I was required to connect it online to patch the system first, thus I was unable to drop in and play Call of Duty. (Which I had to install to the hard drive anyway.)
Have you really not noticed the trend over the last decade or so? Games simply have less testing, always have day 1 patches. (Battlefield 4 anyone?)
And because of such, need patching, just like their PC counterparts.

And I don't mind having an Internet connection, I always have access to the internet, that's not even a first world problem anymore.


Intrinsic said:


Then start it ack up when I start up my console, then load up a brand new game for the first time. Lets see who starts playing that game first. Eve if you have got a $10000 PC, Time to game is always faster on consoles. Its kinda just the nature of things.

Really wan't me to?
I have: Core i7 3930K @ 4.8ghz/6-cores, 12 threads, 64Gb DDR3 Ram, Quad-Radeon R9 290's and I have four Intel 730 240Gb SSD's in Raid.
What's a load time?
SSD's are stupidly fast, four of them working together are even faster.

However, my PC doesn't ever get turned off, just switched to a "work" profile for transcoding, encoding, editing, compute etc'. - Switching between such profiles is instant, there is no BIOS (In my case, UEFI) baggage to deal with.
I am also in the process of downgrading all my other machines to more efficient platforms, which will then access the games library on my main system, also cementing the need to never turn it off. (And also never needing to upgrade my other PC's ever ever ever again, can a single Console do that?)

CGI-Quality said:

I, unfortunately, even ran into some bottlenecking with Tri SLI Titans. Perhaps I was doing it wrong, but I had the best Intel CPU you could buy with it at the time! What more could it need?

Tried overclocking that CPU? I saw big gains on my 3930K with Quadfire, sad reality is, allot of games are still single/dual threaded heavy.

Intrinsic said:

Nope its not bogus. Why? Cause we could be here talking about how good BF4 looks on the PS4 in 900p compared to it being 720p on the XB1. And some PC gamer will take  that as a cue to find that benchmark from TomsHardware that ran the game at 4K at 64fps on ultra settings with a R9 295x2 GPU (thats a $1000+ GPU by the way) or on an Nvidia titan z ($3000 GPU) and start throwing those screen shots around in the thread like that is the floor of PC performance when in truth its a very nrealistic ceiling that very very very few PC gamers can afford. We all know that with more money to spend you can get better performance from a PC setup. But how does that make sense when comparing that to what basically a sub $200 GPU is doing.

You're blowing it out of proportion.
Lets take the Radeon 7850 as an example, which is in the same ballpark as the Playstation 4, you can run Battlefield 4 at 1080P on it.
You are given this thing... Called a choice.
No $1,000 GPU required, only common sense needed.

Mystro-Sama said:
Pemalite said:

The fastest way to stop the PC gamers from being "Obnoxious" is for the console gamers to also tone it down. - Basically, don't do to others what you don't wan't done to yourself, or... Just deal with being a slower, inferior platform.


Yet you perpetuate this with your moronic comment at the end... Do you even think before you type?

I'm glad it had the effect that was intended, there is a purpose to such insanity.

Intrinsic said:

Believe me... I am still in complete absolute shock how misinterpreted this thread has been by some. Especially considerring how clearly I amde he point of this whole discussion in my OP. And some of them are still hard at trying to prove a point that I was never even trying to make to begin with lol. 

That's mostly your own fault rather than everyone elses as you didn't elaborate on such points in the origional post, which left room for it to be construed in other ways.

Sentient_Nebula said:
I definitely agree with what you're saying. But it makes sense that consoles are generally preferred over PC, for the reasons you described.

Consoles are aimed at the average consumer. But most "enthusiast" gamers prefer PC, mainly because it gives you much more freedom and more options (The better graphics is only one of many reasons people like PC over console). It's easy to justify the extra upfront cost for these reasons.

The "average consumer" market will always be larger than the enthusiast one. And that's why consoles and console games are always more prolific.

Except that PC gaming is growing at a rate faster than consoles, and also has more gamers than all 3 console platforms combined and also has more revenue floating around and more games, arguable it could be because of the "Building/Survival" genre's that have allowed the PC to see such explosive growth.
Thus, by extension PC Gamers are more prolific than console gamers currently.

I've seen children get a PC for instance, just so they could play Minecraft as it's more feature rich than the console version, yes really.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--