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RolStoppable said:

Here's a hypothetical scenario:

1. You make a thread about your favorite PlayStation games.

2. This is one of the responses you get:

Halo4Life said:

lol, what a pathetic list of games. Get a grip.

3. I respond to the above person with this:

RolStoppable said:

Just because you don't like the list doesn't mean that it's pathetic. Different tastes for different people. What you are doing here is blatant trolling.

4. Halo4Life gets banned for one day. Reason: Trolling.

5. I get banned for five days. Reason: "Don't call other users 'trolls'.", and five days because my previous moderation for flaming was already three days.

6. Now what do you do, knowing the above? Will you fight for me or will you be fine with my moderation?


I would. You didn't necessarily call him a troll though, just that the act that he was doing at the moment can be considered as trolling ( I would have avoided the blatent part )

With all due respect though we all know that bannable accusations of saying someone's a troll usually go like this though:

"  I've seen you around this site and can't stand your posts. You are obviously a troll looking for attention so please stop"

Or they are usually a long winded post all about telling off that person.

I know it may be hard to wait for reports to be acted upon ( In fact it may be hours before a report is even read ), but if you consider a user as truly or "blatently' a troll than he will be moderated, at the end.



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RolStoppable said:
Mr.Playstation said:

I would. You didn't necessarily call him a troll though, just that the act that he was doing at the moment can be considered as trolling ( I would have avoided the blatent part )

With all due respect though we all know that bannable accusations of saying someone's a troll usually go like this though:

"  I've seen you around this site and can't stand your posts. You are obviously a troll looking for attention so please stop"

Or they are usually a long winded post all about telling off that person.

I know it may be hard to wait for reports to be acted upon ( In fact it may be hours before a report is even read ), but if you consider a user as truly or "blatently' a troll than he will be moderated, at the end.

I need some clarification:

1. You would do what? My final question couldn't be answered with a simple "I would.", so it's not clear what you mean.

2. You consider the word "blatant" worse than the word "trolling"?

1. I meant I would defend you..sorry about that .

2. Indeed, as I said previously it is not up to the user to decide whether one is obviously trolling or not but it is up to mods to do so and then reflect this in the mod note.



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RolStoppable said:
Mr.Playstation said:

1. I meant I would defend you..sorry about that .

2. Indeed, as I said previously it is not up to the user to decide whether one is obviously trolling or not but it is up to mods to do so and then reflect this in the mod note.

Do you realize that these are conflicting views? How do you intend to defend me when you say at the same time that it's up to the mods to deal with trolls?

"Don't ban Rol for what he did, but he is clearly guilty and I agree with the ban."

That's what it sounds like to me right now.

You gave reasons as to why he was trolling, at the  moment, and placed it in the nicest way possible. While you still should have just reported the troller, you still shouldn't be banned for such a small post.

 

Obviously do still keep in mind that most "call out users" posts are 99% never like yours.



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RolStoppable said:
Mr.Playstation said:

You gave reasons as to why he was trolling, at the  moment, and placed it in the nicest way possible. While you still should have just reported the troller, you still shouldn't be banned for such a small post.

 

Obviously do still keep in mind that most "call out users" posts are 99% never like yours.

@bolded: In other words, you would allow it to call a spade a spade in this specific instance. This is what I meant with double standard previously this week:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=7254479

While I initially said that it depends on who you like, later on I changed that to posts that line up with your beliefs. Today you came here to write a rebuttal against my accusation of a double standard, but I'd say that all you've accomplished is that you confirmed that you are guilty of a double standard. What matters in your view regarding the topic of calling a spade a spade is not the question whether or not what was said is true, but rather if it lines up with your own beliefs. If it does line up, the person should not be moderated. If it doesn't line up, it's "mods, do what you usually do" or you are indifferent.

A double standard is a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another. And this kind of post

"I've seen you around this site and can't stand your posts. You are obviously a troll looking for attention so please stop"

isn't really different to the example I gave in my hypothetical scenario. What's missing for the above post is any form of context, and for your double standard to materialize, all we would have to do is insert it into a scenario where it lines up with your beliefs (like the scenario I provided earlier) and you would go from "should be moderated" to "should not be moderated". This would obviously not work right now, because I just told you about it and you would be prepared to give a different answer than normal.

The only thing your double standard really means though is that you shouldn't become a mod on this site at the current time. You aren't ready for that, because a mod has to be able to put personal bias aside when making judgments.

@Text in Bold: In the example " I've seen you around this site and can't stand your posts. You're obviously a troll looking for attention". The person posting that not only called him a troll but also suggested that the users behaviour around the whole site is that of trolling. No matter in what context you put it, it will be a moderation worthy post.

Also let's quote the mod rules on the matter ".

  • Do not reply to other posters with simply "you're wrong" or by calling them a fanboy, idiot, troll (or any other sort of name calling)."
By your last example "....What you are clearly doing is blatent trolling." You didin't call him outright a troll but rather that the action that he is doing is that of trolling. This means that you haven't broken any rules. This is sort of the same as talking someone in real life that he is doing something but in reality he doesn't constantly do that.

Moderation isn't all seeing the rules though. It's also about applying judgement and seeing whether or not even if it has broken the rules, the user deserves to be either banned, given a warning or nothing at all is done. It's why after all we have humans and not robots moderating this site. Sure a robot would be more consitant but a human can apply judgement even though the rules may have been breached.


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The key thing here has to be to apply a human touch to any such incident. In your case provided Rol, you are accusing another user of trolling and thus this would be seen as against forum rules. It's something that's been discussed before - several times (the whole "call a troll a troll" thing, I believe it was brought up earlier this week even) and yet here we are yet again with the same issue.

With that said and considering the context you provided I doubt that a mod would give you a 5 day ban for such a post, even if it was following the progressive ban system. I might have done before when I started modding but having learnt and listened to other users and mods, and having seen things from a different perspective, that probably wouldn't be the case now. As to what that punishment would be; it would have to go down to your previous history, the context of the thread and other posts in it and the history of the other user(s) involved. With this information, the mod team would then discuss the post (often at length) and decide on what would be the fairest punishment. The progressive system acts as a general guideline, but the most powerful tool in the moderator's toolkit is the power of commonsense.

You try and make it sound like moderation is ever constant, when that really isn't the case. No two cases are exactly the same and although frustratingly the same issues pop up over and over again, it doesn't mean that you can immediately arrive at a conclusion when you don't appreciate the work which goes into each moderation. It's all too easy to say what you are saying now, but there's an awful lot more to such a post rather than your over-simplified version, namely the human touch which an active mod team which frequently engages with the community can provide.



 

Here lies the dearly departed Nintendomination Thread.

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RolStoppable said:

@Conegamer: I would be given a five day ban on the grounds that my previous moderation for flaming was three days, and that I knew full well what I was doing and clearly demonstrated that I am unable to learn.

But the current topic wasn't so much about the "call a spade a spade" thing as it was about Mr. Playstation's double standard. He said that he thought about if for a day, so I thought it was important enough to talk to him instead of shunning him with indifference.

Well the next question you have to ask is, if you've already been moderated for the same thing before (at least two or three times you'd have to argue), then why are you still doing it?

The system which we use is one which gives the benefit of the doubt to the user in question initially; however repeat offenders get harsher punishments for repeating the same crime. Your example highlights an extreme case of where such a system can appear unfair from face value, but again that's where the history plays quite a significant part in proceedings. And I still disagree that you'd be given a 5 day ban, unless the previous moderations were also for calling a user a troll or for accusing another user of trolling (which I believe is the case here). Again though this is where the human touch and the benefits of a large, active mod team who interact with the community reaps rewards, and remember also that your case is deliberately highly specific and unusual.  

Having said that it is clear that your discussion involves the way Mr.Playstation inteprets the rules and perhaps the clarity involved is something that we need to work on further still. But as for the double standard you claim, that's something for him to decide, really.



 

Here lies the dearly departed Nintendomination Thread.

RolStoppable said:

Calling someone a troll in an indirect manner is against the rules all the same, and that's what I did in my example. Also, I am pretty sure that the statement you deem as "always moderation-worthy" would be okay, if I had said that to Snesboy in regards to his behavior towards you.

@Conegamer: I would be given a five day ban on the grounds that my previous moderation for flaming was three days, and that I knew full well what I was doing and clearly demonstrated that I am unable to learn.

But the current topic wasn't so much about the "call a spade a spade" thing as it was about Mr. Playstation's double standard. He said that he thought about if for a day, so I thought it was important enough to talk to him instead of shunning him with indifference.


Let's stop here. I'm sorry for even starting this argument back up, I thought I had a concrete argument but it's clear  I don't. I'm sorry about this and hope this haven't cloaded your judgement about me, as you said I'm still not fit to be a moderator, even though I never said something publcially about ever want to be a moderator but you're right. I'm still 16 and still somewhat new to this place.

For one thing though, I'm going to stop fighting the moderators fight ( or agreeing with them ) publically, they can do that perfectly fine themselves.



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Conegamer said:

Damn that is a shame. I really enjoyed her posts and her tech analysis, and I believe from my experience that she was well liked by the community. It's a shame that one mistake from the mod team (and it was a mistake, you either moderate everyone in the thread or you moderate noone) could cause her to leave the site. Hopefully this is a decision that she reverses.

It may have been a mistake in this particular case, but having the forum software eating your post is an issue that applies to all bans. It's a race condition between the check allowing to edit a post (or make a new one) and the check done at the time the poster hits 'submit.'

sc94597 said:
Possibly another issue is that there is no way for someone to obtain a post they were creating before they were redirected to the ban-page. Maybe that can be kept in mind during the development of a revamped forum?

Having the forum save the post before redirecting you to the ban page is the best option, IMHO. Adding the post / thread to the forum's database, but not making it publicly visible (like locked threads) is also an idea.



Currently (Re-)Playing: Starcraft 2: Legacy of the Void Multiplayer, The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past

Currently Watching: The Shield, Stein's;Gate, Narcos

hi,my friend i am new here.....



karida said:

hi,my friend i am new here.....

Welcome to the site good sir! Hope you stick around a bit

@Major - That's right; I also believe it's something that Smeags acknowledged last week and said was going to be worked on, so hopefully that issue is resolved soon to avoid a repeat of this. It's all a learning curve after all.



 

Here lies the dearly departed Nintendomination Thread.