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Forums - Politics Discussion - Scotland to leave the UK?

 

Should Scotland leave the union? If yes or no please say why.

Yes 152 43.80%
 
No 143 41.21%
 
It does not matter 26 7.49%
 
I dont understand 26 7.49%
 
Total:347

So, the last election result kind of highlighted the growing difference in the way Scots want their country to be run, compared to the way things currently are.

Personally, I'm also not happy with being into dragged into alliances with America, and having to petition my government to condemn Israel in hushed voices, lest we upset the USA. Add to this, the increasing vocalisation of anti-electorate sentiment amongst the MPs who have been elected (such as MPs claiming people at the bottom are resorting to food banks because they just don't know how to handle their money/it's their own fault/etc) whilst receiving tax breaks, claiming expenses on their second homes in the most expensive areas of London and, therefore, the island (because the centre of politics is, of course, in London).

Can you sense yet why this dissatisfaction has been growing?

For the record, I lived in Scotland my entire life until I moved to England two years ago for my PhD. I do plan to return. I don't have a vote, I'd like to see an independent nation state, but even if it's a "NO" I'd still like to see an overhaul of the entire British political system.

Just my tuppence. :3



Highwaystar101 said: trashleg said that if I didn't pay back the money she leant me, she would come round and break my legs... That's why people call her trashleg, because she trashes the legs of the people she loan sharks money to.
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trashleg said:

So politically, having a local government that is more closely aligned with the policies and the representation that we actually desire, seems functionally more appropriate than being at the mercy of a government that has more important priorities, and a different political ideology.

Isn't that what the local government/Scottish Parliament is for? 

I wish this government represented what I chose as well. I certainly didn't choose a Tory/LibDem government and majority of the country didn't either. Scottish MPs can still vote on policies affecting the entire country and due to the coalition being somewhat questionable at times. Some policies are not passed due to Labour, SNP and Lib Dem back benchers outvoting the government.

 

Also, welcome back.

 

EDIT: Okay, just read your other post, sorry you don't get a vote (I still don't get that). 



Hmm, pie.

The Fury said:
trashleg said:

So politically, having a local government that is more closely aligned with the policies and the representation that we actually desire, seems functionally more appropriate than being at the mercy of a government that has more important priorities, and a different political ideology.

Isn't that what the local government/Scottish Parliament is for? 

I wish this government represented what I chose as well. I certainly didn't choose a Tory/LibDem government and majority of the country didn't either. Scottish MPs can still vote on policies affecting the entire country and due to the coalition being somewhat questionable at times. Some policies are not passed due to Labour, SNP and Lib Dem back benchers outvoting the government.

 

Also, welcome back.

 

EDIT: Okay, just read your other post, sorry you don't get a vote (I still don't get that). 

Hiya :D

Only everyone who was resident in Scotland prior to September 2nd and registered is eligible to vote. I live in England at the moment, I believe it was Cameron's plea to Salmond that Scots who live outside of Scotland don't get a vote. It was part of the conditions of the referendum. He didn't want us "swaying" the vote. lulz.

I understand you aren't being represented, but let me clarify. Scotland was independent prior to the union, has/had its own distinct identity and resources. If they have this chance to change the waythey governed, should they not be bold enough to take it? It's about so much more than individuals not getting the party they voted for, it's a chronic misalignment of political ideologies. 

As Alex Salmond put it, we have more pandas in Scotland than we do Tory MPs

The devolved parliament you're talking about has its own powers...but only for so much. The budget that Scotland is handed every year is still determined by Westminster. 


I think this is a fantastically exciting opportunity. I hate Westminster politics. I don't hate being British, I don't hate England. If this referendum was never happening, I'd be behind the movement for political restructuring with more devolved powers for all regions.

Whether Scottish independence is achieved or not, I'd LOVE to see Westminster replaced by a more geographically and ideologically central summit system, where delegates from each constituency (for lack of a better term) meet to discuss issues relating to their electorate, without the need for party playfround bullying or rivalry. Rivalry has no place in representation, and it is entirely selfish of the politicians to feed their egos using their electorate. 
Anyway. Yep. Imagine if delegates from all over the UK met up regularly to discuss issues and solve problems, assigning budgets as required and being much more inclusive, much more locally involved. 

Sounds good, doesn't it? If Scotland can start the rest of the UK thinking "we should have more of a say over ourselves", then let's do this.



Highwaystar101 said: trashleg said that if I didn't pay back the money she leant me, she would come round and break my legs... That's why people call her trashleg, because she trashes the legs of the people she loan sharks money to.

The European union is a joke, the taxes from Britain are high and everything is taxed, they even tax horse shit.

I think it will be rocky at first but it will allow them to be more in control of their own destiny no matter the stupid decisions/rules/taxes that come from EU and/or Britain.

I know I would vote for independence. I would even here in the US, especially now.



 

trashleg said:

[...]

Hiya :D

Only everyone who was resident in Scotland prior to September 2nd and registered is eligible to vote. I live in England at the moment, I believe it was Cameron's plea to Salmond that Scots who live outside of Scotland don't get a vote. It was part of the conditions of the referendum. He didn't want us "swaying" the vote. lulz.

I understand you aren't being represented, but let me clarify. Scotland was independent prior to the union, has/had its own distinct identity and resources. If they have this chance to change the waythey governed, should they not be bold enough to take it? It's about so much more than individuals not getting the party they voted for, it's a chronic misalignment of political ideologies. 

As Alex Salmond put it, we have more pandas in Scotland than we do Tory MPs

The devolved parliament you're talking about has its own powers...but only for so much. The budget that Scotland is handed every year is still determined by Westminster. 


I think this is a fantastically exciting opportunity. I hate Westminster politics. I don't hate being British, I don't hate England. If this referendum was never happening, I'd be behind the movement for political restructuring with more devolved powers for all regions.

Whether Scottish independence is achieved or not, I'd LOVE to see Westminster replaced by a more geographically and ideologically central summit system, where delegates from each constituency (for lack of a better term) meet to discuss issues relating to their electorate, without the need for party playfround bullying or rivalry. Rivalry has no place in representation, and it is entirely selfish of the politicians to feed their egos using their electorate. 
Anyway. Yep. Imagine if delegates from all over the UK met up regularly to discuss issues and solve problems, assigning budgets as required and being much more inclusive, much more locally involved. 

Sounds good, doesn't it? If Scotland can start the rest of the UK thinking "we should have more of a say over ourselves", then let's do this.

Welcome back and sorry you can't vote. About lack of devoulution, here in Italy it's even worse, we even struggle to obtain what you have now there, let alone achieving your second best options just in case Scotland remain in the UK. Anyway, the root of both your problems and ours has something in common, old parties and their members don't want to give up the power strong central governments in relatively big countries give them. Yes, they can achieve power also in local councils, but without a strong central power, old parties are defeated quite easily by civil lists whenever they rule badly local administrations.



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trashleg said:

Hiya :D

Only everyone who was resident in Scotland prior to September 2nd and registered is eligible to vote. I live in England at the moment, I believe it was Cameron's plea to Salmond that Scots who live outside of Scotland don't get a vote. It was part of the conditions of the referendum. He didn't want us "swaying" the vote. lulz.

I understand you aren't being represented, but let me clarify. Scotland was independent prior to the union, has/had its own distinct identity and resources. If they have this chance to change the waythey governed, should they not be bold enough to take it? It's about so much more than individuals not getting the party they voted for, it's a chronic misalignment of political ideologies. 

As Alex Salmond put it, we have more pandas in Scotland than we do Tory MPs

The devolved parliament you're talking about has its own powers...but only for so much. The budget that Scotland is handed every year is still determined by Westminster. 


I think this is a fantastically exciting opportunity. I hate Westminster politics. I don't hate being British, I don't hate England. If this referendum was never happening, I'd be behind the movement for political restructuring with more devolved powers for all regions.

Whether Scottish independence is achieved or not, I'd LOVE to see Westminster replaced by a more geographically and ideologically central summit system, where delegates from each constituency (for lack of a better term) meet to discuss issues relating to their electorate, without the need for party playfround bullying or rivalry. Rivalry has no place in representation, and it is entirely selfish of the politicians to feed their egos using their electorate. 
Anyway. Yep. Imagine if delegates from all over the UK met up regularly to discuss issues and solve problems, assigning budgets as required and being much more inclusive, much more locally involved. 

Sounds good, doesn't it? If Scotland can start the rest of the UK thinking "we should have more of a say over ourselves", then let's do this.

Which baffles me more as the 400 thousand English residents in Scotland get to vote, infact if they want the Polish residents can, can't they? Which would be weird considering, they could vote for independence and then not be allowed to work/live there anymore. A Scottish born/immediate offspring of Scottish born would have been best. Although hard to do.

A lot has changed in 300 years. The reasons for the union may no longer apply but there have been good recent strides to allow Scotland, Wales and NI more power to govern themselves away from Westminster, abilities to set some of their own policies. Just because one government (which ends in May next year) isn't to the countries liking is no reason to do a (somewhat) permanent solution to a temporary problem.

 

That idea sounds like the EU, which I am for (mainly due to trade) but things are unlikely to change on that front, however giving more power to each region is the way to do it.

It sad that I've never really seen myself as English, but British yet have no control/no say in the outcome of something that affects my country.



Hmm, pie.

Metrium said:

You made some good points and I won't contradict you cause doing otherwise would just be me talking out of my ass since I don't have any data. But not everything needs to be a economical issue, sometimes it's a social issue. Even if rough times would be ahead, on the long run socially and culturaly their is alot of benefits that I guess you will never understand. It's a question of national pride and identity that makes these sacrifices worth it.

That I agree with. That is one of the only pros of Quebec becoming seperate. But otherwise I see no other benefit. Canada would suffer by becoming weaker and less wealthy and Quebec would lose the benefits of being part of Canada. Another huge disadvantage would be your debt and future loans you'd borrow would probably have very high interest rates. 



    

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KylieDog said:
Metrium said:

If these english speakers feel so intimidated by a strong french culture and refuse to assimilate themselves to the point where theyd rather leave, so be it. Montréal is already filled with english speakers that refuse to speak or learn french despite the french majority. They see themselves above ''the indigenous'' to learn our language, forcing the majority around them to speak their language.

I found this funny, considering the french speakers made a big commotion about getting the name of KFC changed to PFK, because it wasn't French and didn't make sense.  In France it is stil KFC and nobody cares.

Seems like just a chip on a shoulder attitude.  Nobody elsewhere in the world identifies french-canadians as french.

Because France are not threatned of losing their language. Québec is surounded by english speakers. Ontario to the west, USA in the south and all the atlantic provinces in the east. We are the last french stronghold in all america and the fact that we are surounded by english speakers and that we are under a federal gouvernment that is also mainly english speakers, we are slowly losing our language. It was worst before the Québec gouvernment made some measures like forcing companies to show their products in french etc. And still despite these measures we are losing our language. We are to the point in some places in montréal you can't get served in french. In some bars you try to order a beer in french and the waitress will answer you ''sorry I don't speak french''. That would NEVER happen in france, and that phenomenon is now spreading outside of montréal.

There is also a social issue where our ancesters back in the begining of the last century up untill maybe the 60s maybe even 70s were all exploited by english speakers. All big companies and big jobs were owned by the english speakers and all french speakers were laborers. All the wealth were owned by the english speakers and the french speakers that was the majority of the population were seen and felt as subpar citizens. In the 70s we had a small revolution where our government started taking action by forcing french into shops and restaurants, they are not forbidden to speak english, but they have the obligation to be able to serve someone in french and having menus and commercial displays written in french.

Can you imagine going to a restaurant in france with everything around you is written in english? That would'nt be much of a problem since you obviously speak perfect english but imagine you are 100%french, don't know a word in english and in you own country of france, you can't even understand a thing because every shops and restaurants are owned by english speakers that don't care about your lousy french laborer ass. And now immagine that you are not alone, you are in the same boots as the vast mojority of the people. Offcaurse actions would be taken and it's natural that we are protective of our language since this is a sensitive issue for us that affected us not long ago.



 

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The Fury said:

Which baffles me more as the 400 thousand English residents in Scotland get to vote, infact if they want the Polish residents can, can't they? Which would be weird considering, they could vote for independence and then not be allowed to work/live there anymore. A Scottish born/immediate offspring of Scottish born would have been best. Although hard to do.

A lot has changed in 300 years. The reasons for the union may no longer apply but there have been good recent strides to allow Scotland, Wales and NI more power to govern themselves away from Westminster, abilities to set some of their own policies. Just because one government (which ends in May next year) isn't to the countries liking is no reason to do a (somewhat) permanent solution to a temporary problem.

 

That idea sounds like the EU, which I am for (mainly due to trade) but things are unlikely to change on that front, however giving more power to each region is the way to do it.

It sad that I've never really seen myself as English, but British yet have no control/no say in the outcome of something that affects my country.

My mum is English, but has lived in Scotland for more than half her life. And you're right, any legal immigrants also have a vote. I don't remember if I said so already, but 97% of thsoe eligible to vote have registered to do so. 

I don't think this is a "temporary" problem. Only twice since the last world war has Scotland's vote in the general election had any effect on the results. It kind of feels like we're allowed to help out in the garden, but we've been given a teaspoon next to England's shovel. 

I agree that we've had some really good strengths together, but then I've never known any different - and neither have you. 1/4 million children in Scotland live below the poverty line, food banks are exploding exponentially. Can you blame people for wanting to take this chance to opt out?

(Personally, I didn't even consider myself British until very very recently). I've always identified as Scottish, it wasn't until a few years ago I realised that being "British" wasn't only something English people could be proud of, because that's how foreign TV always works (Watch any episode of any American TV show, "British" always refers to an English character and us Scots are described as, well, Scots... Growing up with that made it kind of difficult to automatically associate with that identity). 

It isn't the particular party that irks me, personally. It's the entire system. And yes, I would MUCH prefer a more EU-type forum with more grounded delegates.

People always go on about how the British political system is so good because it's so established. But that's just ridiculous - just because it's old, doesn't mean it's fit for purpose. It's archaic and elitist and it needs to go. We need to remove ourselves from it, one way or another. And I'm not just speaking as a Scot. That last statement applies to all us Brits.



Highwaystar101 said: trashleg said that if I didn't pay back the money she leant me, she would come round and break my legs... That's why people call her trashleg, because she trashes the legs of the people she loan sharks money to.
LiquorandGunFun said:
The European union is a joke, the taxes from Britain are high and everything is taxed, they even tax horse shit.

I think it will be rocky at first but it will allow them to be more in control of their own destiny no matter the stupid decisions/rules/taxes that come from EU and/or Britain.

I know I would vote for independence. I would even here in the US, especially now.

You know the Scots are quite left wing, right?



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