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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine

BMaker11 on 22 July 2014
Machiavellian said:
BMaker11 said:

Why do games ship with Day 1 patches to up the rez to 1080p? They let the games go gold knowing full well they could just have it run at 1080p, but they still release and patch it the moment you insert the disc into the console. Clearly they have the code to apply it to the game beforehand, since they announce months in advance that the patch is released the day the game releases (when, in those months, they could just make the game 1080p on the disc), but they just don't apply it.

So, to answer your question: I have no clue how much work they put into it, but it doesn't mean they put a whole lot into it just because DRM was still on the console when the console launched

Actually thats not correct.  Games that come with day one patch mean that the changes needed could not be added before the Gold master is sent to production.  People forget their is a huge machine that goes into getting software and hardware into your hands.  Usually they have a process and timeline.  Missing those timelines would be very costly because a lot of marketing, hardware and software allocations and money spent is wrapped up in the process.

From my experience, I believe MS had to scrap a good portion of their OS security.  The 24 hour check was probably deeply integrated with how the X1 was made.  Just removing such a piece probably would introduce a hell of a lot of code especially if the security touched a lot of the OS when running games.  MS not only changed the DRM but they had to change how games would run since you had to install the game first.  It was not setup to run from disk as once installed you could literly throw the disk away.

With the games example, don't games go gold only like a week or two before being released? You telling me that patch they have raring to go Day 1 can't be applied to the master copy before it gets sent out to press onto a million discs? But in two weeks, it'll definitely be finished?

And like I said in a prior comment: if there is ever a hiccup in the development cycle, games get delayed months. XBone's release date never waivered. DRM removal isn't some aesthetic change like an uprez or something (things that are added after the fact). It was important to the core of the system, the same way fleshing out a game is important so it won't be buggy. If it's buggy, they delay to fix it in order relieve pressure from potential lost money. Apparently, XBone wasn't hard to fix since at no point was it not releasing on November 22, 2013. Microsoft knew that "flipping the switch" could be done between June 19th and November 22nd, otherwise they wouldn't have announced the changes so quickly. If it was something so difficult that they didn't know how long it would take to remedy, launch would have been very different.



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LudicrousSpeed on 22 July 2014
S.T.A.G.E. said:

MS wasnt listening to anyone but themselves. It wasnt until Gamestop lowered Microsofts preorder numbers that they changed their ways.

I don't buy into tin foil hattery. There was monstrous negativity regarding DRM from all angles.

By the way, when Gamestop capped their in-store preorders, you could still order the console online. Sorry for putting a big hole in that conspiracy theory.



sales2099 on 22 July 2014
Machiavellian said:
sales2099 said:
eva01beserk said:
daredevil.shark said:
 


But my comment still holds. Dual 1080p native resolution output for PS3. CGI graphics. Lol. Sony lied big time. Sony did the biggest false marketing in the history of gaming. Compared to PS3; Xbox One seems a small pinkie lie.

"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."     ------George Santayana

Your right sony did make that mistake. But does that give ms the right to do the same?(I see what ms is doing much worst but whatever). The worst part is that it was  amistake done by someone else and still they did not learn from it wich is why consumers dont seem to forget and wont let ms of the hook. So for people who keep saying hat sony did years ago, its even worst that ms did knowing it failed before but still arrogantly enouff did it anyways.

Actually yes, it does. Everyone has to make their own mistakes to learn. Life doesn't work like that where someone learns a lesson merely by observing someone else learning it. It always sticks better when its more personal.

Actually, since MS's mistakes never actually made it to the consoles launch, it technically isn't worse then PS3's early woes....which did make it to launch.

When you have kids, you learn this point big time.  My wife and I always wonder why our son must experience his own mistakes even thought we have told him and showed examples before he listen.

I learned this as a kid. Parents tell you what is good and bad. But when you do them anyway, you actually see the point, and then you truly learn the lesson.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

BMaker11 on 22 July 2014
sales2099 said:

Cutting the PR crap, they are merely part of a hierarchy and it was their job to stay behind their product and what it stood for at the time. Until authorized otherwise, they shouldn't have been allowed to raise doubt about their business model.

"can't flip a switch" = It will take some time but it can be done. Hey, even one week is more time then "flipping a switch". I'm sure MS had many working long hours to remedy that asap

"the console was built around it" = Technically that isn't a lie. MS still believes the console is at it's best with Kinect attached, espcially when voice commanding your TV/media.

"Xbox One is Kinect. They aren't separate systems" = They wanted solidarity in their SKU lineup and not seperate userbases like 360 kinect did.

The quotes are more about their vision then physical hardware limitations. You just have to brush up on PR speak to get the real message.

#1 Taking a week is more time that "flipping a switch", but in the grand scheme of things, it was something that could quickly be done

#2 The console was built around it has to do with DRM, not Kinect.

#3 No, he said it was a part of the platform ecosystem, like blu ray, ram, and CPU. The parts that "make up" the Xbox One. There is no "separate" SKU, if you released an XBone with RAM and one without, because the latter wouldn't work. That's the impression he was trying to give off with "Xbox One is Kinect"; that each part was essential to make the console function. And without it, it wouldn't function. Why else would he compare Kinect to RAM and Blu Ray?



Aura7541 on 22 July 2014
Machiavellian said:
Aura7541 said:

@1st Bolded. I'm talking about the X1.

@ 2nd Bolded. If you read the the text inside the parantheses, you'll find your answer. The difference was the time it took for Sony and MS to react. One company took a significantly shorter time to react than the other.

How was MS response or how timly they reacted not fast.  E3 2013 was June 11 - 13.  MS made their policy change June 19th.  How fast do you think it takes to completly change your policy and direction for a product that was years in the making.

I also have to say that the 2 scenerios are not equal.  Sony only needed to provide a disc for a game, MS has to throw out basically everything they wanted to do which I am sure cost them millions.  If we are going to compare scenerios that could be on the same level then the PS hack would be it.  It took Sony 2 weeks before they confirmed there was a hack and that customer info was compromised.  Both scenerios cost both companies millions.

MS had several red flags that were as clear as day. From the surveys to the "VS" videos from IGN, it was crystal clear that the X1 would do horribly at the state it was in. However, MS acted really arrogant, making up excuses like the consumers don't know what's best for them or the like.

Also, the PSN shutdown isn't similar enough when we're talking about a company listening to what the consumer wants/doesn't want out of a product. Huge difference there. Freedom Wars and X1 are products. PSN is a service and on top of that, what the customers wanted during the PSN shutdown was an explanation. Not a product, an explanation. Sony took 2 weeks because at the beginning, they did not have a complete picture of what was going on until then. Just because the PSN shutdown and MS's X1 fiasco costed both companies millions doesn't mean the scenarios are the same. Also, no one's customer info got compromised since there were no reports of credit fraud whatsoever, but I digress...



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sales2099 on 22 July 2014
BMaker11 said:
sales2099 said:

Cutting the PR crap, they are merely part of a hierarchy and it was their job to stay behind their product and what it stood for at the time. Until authorized otherwise, they shouldn't have been allowed to raise doubt about their business model.

"can't flip a switch" = It will take some time but it can be done. Hey, even one week is more time then "flipping a switch". I'm sure MS had many working long hours to remedy that asap

"the console was built around it" = Technically that isn't a lie. MS still believes the console is at it's best with Kinect attached, espcially when voice commanding your TV/media.

"Xbox One is Kinect. They aren't separate systems" = They wanted solidarity in their SKU lineup and not seperate userbases like 360 kinect did.

The quotes are more about their vision then physical hardware limitations. You just have to brush up on PR speak to get the real message.

#1 Taking a week is more time that "flipping a switch", but in the grand scheme of things, it was something that could quickly be done

#2 The console was built around it has to do with DRM, not Kinect.

#3 No, he said it was a part of the platform ecosystem, like blu ray, ram, and CPU. The parts that "make up" the Xbox One. There is no "separate" SKU, if you released an XBone with RAM and one without, because the latter wouldn't work. That's the impression he was trying to give off with "Xbox One is Kinect"; that each part was essential to make the console function. And without it, it wouldn't function. Why else would he compare Kinect to RAM and Blu Ray?

Well 1 and 2 can't argue, but #3, it again comes down to them personally weighing Kinect as important as bluray or RAM. To them, kinect was that essential as the rest to the X1. Doesn't mean it couldn't be removed. To them at the time, it was 100% essential for the console to function, from a business standpoint.

360 kinect was an option and they had to ram home that this kinect won't be like that. Again, PR is designed to be vague and tell half-truths. They technically aren't wrong if you look at it a certain way.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

BMaker11 on 22 July 2014
sales2099 said:
BMaker11 said:

#1 Taking a week is more time that "flipping a switch", but in the grand scheme of things, it was something that could quickly be done

#2 The console was built around it has to do with DRM, not Kinect.

#3 No, he said it was a part of the platform ecosystem, like blu ray, ram, and CPU. The parts that "make up" the Xbox One. There is no "separate" SKU, if you released an XBone with RAM and one without, because the latter wouldn't work. That's the impression he was trying to give off with "Xbox One is Kinect"; that each part was essential to make the console function. And without it, it wouldn't function. Why else would he compare Kinect to RAM and Blu Ray?

Well 1 and 2 can't argue, but #3, it again comes down to them personally weighing Kinect as important as bluray or RAM. To them, kinect was that essential as the rest to the X1. Doesn't mean it couldn't be removed. To them at the time, it was 100% essential for the console to function, from a business standpoint.

360 kinect was an option and they had to ram home that this kinect won't be like that. Again, PR is designed to be vague and tell half-truths. They technically aren't wrong if you look at it a certain way.

But that doesn't make any sense. They are all "just as essential", but remove blu ray and the Xbone literally wouldn't work. Remove RAM and the Xbone literally wouldn't work. Remove the CPU and the Xbone literally wouldn't work. Remove Kinect and....the Xbone is just fine. But he wanted to leave the impression that it literally wouldn't work, because it was "as essential as" everything else.

"From a business standpoint" is not a factor in what "as essential as" means in the context Harrison was speaking in (i.e. why Kinect cannot be removed). Reading it any other way is spin because a "business standpoint" has nothing to do with physical functionality, like memory, blu ray, and (what Phil wanted us to believe) Kinect does for the console.



sales2099 on 22 July 2014
BMaker11 said:
 

But that doesn't make any sense. They are all "just as essential", but remove blu ray and the Xbone literally wouldn't work. Remove RAM and the Xbone literally wouldn't work. Remove the CPU and the Xbone literally wouldn't work. Remove Kinect and....the Xbone is just fine. But he wanted to leave the impression that it literally wouldn't work, because it was "as essential as" everything else.

"From a business standpoint" is not a factor in what "as essential as" means in the context Harrison was speaking in (i.e. why Kinect cannot be removed). Reading it any other way is spin because a "business standpoint" has nothing to do with physical functionality, like memory, blu ray, and (what Phil wanted us to believe) Kinect does for the console.

It makes sense if you view it as a business model. Being essential as the rest doesn't mean nothing can be removed. It means it was essential to their vision, just as the other parts were. You, as well as many others, thought of this too literally.

Reading it as spin is the point. That is PR. Technical truths that are designed to be interpreted multiple ways, all of them being true, depending how you look at it.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Landguy on 22 July 2014
BMaker11 said:
sales2099 said:
BMaker11 said:

#1 Taking a week is more time that "flipping a switch", but in the grand scheme of things, it was something that could quickly be done

#2 The console was built around it has to do with DRM, not Kinect.

#3 No, he said it was a part of the platform ecosystem, like blu ray, ram, and CPU. The parts that "make up" the Xbox One. There is no "separate" SKU, if you released an XBone with RAM and one without, because the latter wouldn't work. That's the impression he was trying to give off with "Xbox One is Kinect"; that each part was essential to make the console function. And without it, it wouldn't function. Why else would he compare Kinect to RAM and Blu Ray?

Well 1 and 2 can't argue, but #3, it again comes down to them personally weighing Kinect as important as bluray or RAM. To them, kinect was that essential as the rest to the X1. Doesn't mean it couldn't be removed. To them at the time, it was 100% essential for the console to function, from a business standpoint.

360 kinect was an option and they had to ram home that this kinect won't be like that. Again, PR is designed to be vague and tell half-truths. They technically aren't wrong if you look at it a certain way.

But that doesn't make any sense. They are all "just as essential", but remove blu ray and the Xbone literally wouldn't work. Remove RAM and the Xbone literally wouldn't work. Remove the CPU and the Xbone literally wouldn't work. Remove Kinect and....the Xbone is just fine. But he wanted to leave the impression that it literally wouldn't work, because it was "as essential as" everything else.

"From a business standpoint" is not a factor in what "as essential as" means in the context Harrison was speaking in (i.e. why Kinect cannot be removed). Reading it any other way is spin because a "business standpoint" has nothing to do with physical functionality, like memory, blu ray, and (what Phil wanted us to believe) Kinect does for the console.

I disagree.

 

If all of the people claiming that they lied would step back and look at where they were when they said that, it was not a lie.  To do what  they wanted the XB1 to do, they needed DRM and Kinect, it was required.  The original plan for the XB1 was not to be an Xbox720 or PS4.  They were hoping to go to another kind of experience and set of capabilities.  Obviously the market said NO,NO,NO,NO!   So they took the bones of the system and went back to the Xbox 720.  It is too bad they didn't plan the sytem out to be more modular from the begining.  That way the core fanboys would have had a system that they wanted from the start and the other "deluxe" version could have been for the adventurous types.



It is near the end of the end....

S.T.A.G.E. on 22 July 2014
Aura7541 said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:


MS wasnt listening to anyone but themselves. It wasnt until Gamestop lowered Microsofts preorder numbers that they changed their ways.

I don't think Gamestop lowered MS's preorder numbers nor could they actually do that. They were already low to begin with. Also, MS had additional warning signs prior to preorders such as the surveys and IGN giving the PS4 the People's Choice Award right after the X1 reveal. People may argue that the surveys aren't accurate and yaddi-yada-yada, but the disparity was so huge that even with a +/- 10% margin of error, the surveys would still be lopsided.


I dont believe they artificially lowered the numbers, but they capped the amount of preorders they were taking for Xbox One, while letting Sony run wild. When MS dropped DRM they raised it again and then Sony's preorders were all sold out and then they were trying as hard as they could to sell out Xbone preorders before the Xbone launch. This was around the beginning when you couldn't even preorder a PS4.