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I mean looking at Shrek 3, it generated $92 million in one quarter and one can deduce at least $150 million in another quarter based on nearby quarterly data. $250 million based on $800 million worldwide is 31% off of box office alone.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

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Landguy said:
Baalzamon said:
Landguy said:

Again, I didn't make my point clear.  Sony bought Columbia pictures back in 1989.  When they decided to start Sony Animation Studios(a division of Columbia which was owned by its parent Sony), that is how this whole thing came to light.  The same can be said for Dreamworks.  The small company inside of Dreamworks, was Dreamworks Animation.  Pixar was also made up of lots of small companies.  Most large companies are this way.

When it comes to quoting $267 million for Shrek, that was the revenue generate by the movie, not the profit.  Dreamworks Animation itself would have only seen a small percentage (probably only 20-30%)of the actual profit($30-40 million) as they distributed all of their movies through movie studios(Paramount at the time I think) with distribution arms.

My point was that many of these companies worked togther on many projects through various deals in place by them or their parent companies.  Because of that, they may have had an understanding that they would not harm themselves through cut throat business practices.  By harming thm, they would in fact be harming themselves.

I don't disagree, that this may have impacted the earnings potential of these employees in the short term.  But it could just as easily proven to hurt their ability to be employed later by other studios.  That was my point in bringing up the demise of Sony's animation studio.  They burned the bridges(partnerships) with other studios and eventually failed.  Not sure how that helped anyone else out.  It probabaly damaged the careers of those who got involved to a degree.

Remeber, these "agreements" may have stopped companies from directly approaching employees without consent, but proabably couldn't stop these employees from seeking employment on their own.  That is what the Law was about(or at least its apllication here).

Well Shrek actually made $492 million worldwide. Indicating Dreamworks got $98 to $148 million, not to mention just as much off of DVD sales, according to your %'s...which are flat out deceiving.

If you look at Shrek 2, it is documented as generating >$360 million of revenue for a single quarter for Dreamworks alone, off of DVD sales and the tail end of theaters.

Dreamworks IS and WAS a very large company.

Dreamworks and Dreamworks animation are two different things, even though they are part of the same.  Dreamworks animation was rather small at the time.  The animation division was just starting to be successful.  Shrek's success was a surprise to everyone.  But, your calculations don't work that way for the film industry.  Production companies genrally only see 10-15 % of the revenues from outside of the US back then.  Today, they only see 20-30%.  So, the # wouldn't have grown much from the worldwide gross.  I do agree that the DVD and merchandising sales would have been good.   But, the first Shrek wasn't expected to do that well, so the share of the merchandising would have been much smaller than you think.  Shrek 2 would have been where most of the money was being made.  THat movie did almost twice the revenue and had huge merchandising tie-ins and even bigger DVD sales.

Your %'s simply DON'T work, is what I am saying. Dreamworks had a $50-$60 million production budget, with a $30 million advertising budget. We are talking $80-$90 million spent on the movie. I just have an incredible time believing (based on the %'s I'm seeing that are publicly available for Shrek 2 and 3), that they didn't already have more revenue from the theaters alone.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Landguy said:

Dreamworks and Dreamworks animation are two different things, even though they are part of the same.  Dreamworks animation was rather small at the time.  The animation division was just starting to be successful.  Shrek's success was a surprise to everyone.  But, your calculations don't work that way for the film industry.  Production companies genrally only see 10-15 % of the revenues from outside of the US back then.  Today, they only see 20-30%.  So, the # wouldn't have grown much from the worldwide gross.  I do agree that the DVD and merchandising sales would have been good.   But, the first Shrek wasn't expected to do that well, so the share of the merchandising would have been much smaller than you think.  Shrek 2 would have been where most of the money was being made.  THat movie did almost twice the revenue and had huge merchandising tie-ins and even bigger DVD sales.

Between the time their first movie (Antz) released, and 2002, they had invested $455,000,000 in 6 movies, and grossed $1,298,611,099, those aren't small time numbers.  I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one :)



Baalzamon said:
Landguy said:
Baalzamon said:
Landguy said:

Again, I didn't make my point clear.  Sony bought Columbia pictures back in 1989.  When they decided to start Sony Animation Studios(a division of Columbia which was owned by its parent Sony), that is how this whole thing came to light.  The same can be said for Dreamworks.  The small company inside of Dreamworks, was Dreamworks Animation.  Pixar was also made up of lots of small companies.  Most large companies are this way.

When it comes to quoting $267 million for Shrek, that was the revenue generate by the movie, not the profit.  Dreamworks Animation itself would have only seen a small percentage (probably only 20-30%)of the actual profit($30-40 million) as they distributed all of their movies through movie studios(Paramount at the time I think) with distribution arms.

My point was that many of these companies worked togther on many projects through various deals in place by them or their parent companies.  Because of that, they may have had an understanding that they would not harm themselves through cut throat business practices.  By harming thm, they would in fact be harming themselves.

I don't disagree, that this may have impacted the earnings potential of these employees in the short term.  But it could just as easily proven to hurt their ability to be employed later by other studios.  That was my point in bringing up the demise of Sony's animation studio.  They burned the bridges(partnerships) with other studios and eventually failed.  Not sure how that helped anyone else out.  It probabaly damaged the careers of those who got involved to a degree.

Remeber, these "agreements" may have stopped companies from directly approaching employees without consent, but proabably couldn't stop these employees from seeking employment on their own.  That is what the Law was about(or at least its apllication here).

Well Shrek actually made $492 million worldwide. Indicating Dreamworks got $98 to $148 million, not to mention just as much off of DVD sales, according to your %'s...which are flat out deceiving.

If you look at Shrek 2, it is documented as generating >$360 million of revenue for a single quarter for Dreamworks alone, off of DVD sales and the tail end of theaters.

Dreamworks IS and WAS a very large company.

Dreamworks and Dreamworks animation are two different things, even though they are part of the same.  Dreamworks animation was rather small at the time.  The animation division was just starting to be successful.  Shrek's success was a surprise to everyone.  But, your calculations don't work that way for the film industry.  Production companies genrally only see 10-15 % of the revenues from outside of the US back then.  Today, they only see 20-30%.  So, the # wouldn't have grown much from the worldwide gross.  I do agree that the DVD and merchandising sales would have been good.   But, the first Shrek wasn't expected to do that well, so the share of the merchandising would have been much smaller than you think.  Shrek 2 would have been where most of the money was being made.  THat movie did almost twice the revenue and had huge merchandising tie-ins and even bigger DVD sales.

Your %'s simply DON'T work, is what I am saying. Dreamworks had a $50-$60 million production budget, with a $30 million advertising budget. We are talking $80-$90 million spent on the movie. I just have an incredible time believing (based on the %'s I'm seeing that are publicly available for Shrek 2 and 3), that they didn't already have more revenue from the theaters alone.

I assume you know that theatres generally took 50% of the first weekend gross back then.  Then the theatres take increases every week a movie is in the theatre to compensate for the diminshing crowds.  Those #'s are for the US back in the late 90's and early 2000's.  The formula has gone a little heavier for the studios today, as they get 60% of the first week.  Thats why the opening weekend is so important now.  The original Shrek made $42 million(US) the first weekend and was popular enough to stick around to make the $267 million.  It made $42m it's second weekend and $55 million it's third. 

The problem with comparing to Shrek 2 and 3 is that they came out later when the percentages went up and the opening weekends did too.  Shrek 2 made $108m/$72m/$95m in its first 3 weeks.  Shrek 3 made $121m/$53m/$67m it's first 3 weeks.  Also, the toy tie ins and co-op advertising  for the 2/3 were massively higher.  So, the profitability was much better.

For the foreign markets, it really depends.  But the #'s are much lower, but have also improved in the last 10 years.  The foreign markets have also tripled in size.



It is near the end of the end....

mornelithe said:
Landguy said:

Dreamworks and Dreamworks animation are two different things, even though they are part of the same.  Dreamworks animation was rather small at the time.  The animation division was just starting to be successful.  Shrek's success was a surprise to everyone.  But, your calculations don't work that way for the film industry.  Production companies genrally only see 10-15 % of the revenues from outside of the US back then.  Today, they only see 20-30%.  So, the # wouldn't have grown much from the worldwide gross.  I do agree that the DVD and merchandising sales would have been good.   But, the first Shrek wasn't expected to do that well, so the share of the merchandising would have been much smaller than you think.  Shrek 2 would have been where most of the money was being made.  THat movie did almost twice the revenue and had huge merchandising tie-ins and even bigger DVD sales.

Between the time their first movie (Antz) released, and 2002, they had invested $455,000,000 in 6 movies, and grossed $1,298,611,099, those aren't small time numbers.  I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one :)

Dreamworks actually released 25 movies between that time. But that is mostly not relevent.

The 6 animation movies went like this:

YR/Movie US Foreign Budget of production Marketing     (50% of budget))
1998  Antz  $          90,000,000  $       81,000,000  $   105,000,000  $      52,500,000
1998 Prince of egypt  $       101,000,000  $    117,000,000  $     70,000,000  $      35,000,000
2000 Road to Eldorado  $          50,000,000  $       25,000,000  $     95,000,000  $      47,500,000
2000 Chicken Run  $       106,000,000  $    118,000,000  $     45,000,000  $      22,500,000
2001 Shrek  $       267,000,000  $    216,000,000  $     60,000,000  $      30,000,000
2002 Spirit  $          73,000,000  $       49,000,000  $     80,000,000  $      40,000,000
   $       687,000,000  $    606,000,000  $   455,000,000  $    227,500,000
         
         
  Theatre Revenue 1,293,000,000    
  40% of Revenue 517,200,000 usual take home of Movie  
  Cost of production +Marketing 682,500,000

 

 

 

 

The debate really is about what percentage of the revenue is actually profit.  As the theatres take a chunk of that.   Also, Dreamworks used other companies to do their distribution who also took a chunk. 

I agree with you that if you take just Revenue and basic budgets, it would seem to be much more profitable than you would expect.

But, that is not the total of costs or profits.



It is near the end of the end....

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Landguy said:

Dreamworks actually released 25 movies between that time. But that is mostly not relevent.

The 6 animation movies went like this:

YR/Movie US Foreign Budget of production Marketing     (50% of budget))
1998  Antz  $          90,000,000  $       81,000,000  $   105,000,000  $      52,500,000
1998 Prince of egypt  $       101,000,000  $    117,000,000  $     70,000,000  $      35,000,000
2000 Road to Eldorado  $          50,000,000  $       25,000,000  $     95,000,000  $      47,500,000
2000 Chicken Run  $       106,000,000  $    118,000,000  $     45,000,000  $      22,500,000
2001 Shrek  $       267,000,000  $    216,000,000  $     60,000,000  $      30,000,000
2002 Spirit  $          73,000,000  $       49,000,000  $     80,000,000  $      40,000,000
   $       687,000,000  $    606,000,000  $   455,000,000  $    227,500,000
         
         
  Theatre Revenue 1,293,000,000    
  40% of Revenue 517,200,000 usual take home of Movie  
  Cost of production +Marketing 682,500,000

 

 

 

 

The debate really is about what percentage of the revenue is actually profit.  As the theatres take a chunk of that.   Also, Dreamworks used other companies to do their distribution who also took a chunk. 

I agree with you that if you take just Revenue and basic budgets, it would seem to be much more profitable than you would expect.

But, that is not the total of costs or profits.

That's actually the debate you're making, it's not the debate I'm making, nor was it ever my intent.  I'm simply showing that the numbers invested, and the returns (regardless of what percent, had to be at least what they put in, and then some) do not signify a 'small studio.'  Which gets back to the original point of, if your employer who's making a ton of money on your work, isn't showing that they value you and someone comes in and offers you a job with a salary/benefits that you think is more commensurate with your talent (ergo, market deciding salary), there should be no problems with that (which is why it's legal for companies to do just that).



mornelithe said:
Landguy said:

Dreamworks actually released 25 movies between that time. But that is mostly not relevent.

The 6 animation movies went like this:

YR/Movie US Foreign Budget of production Marketing     (50% of budget))
1998  Antz  $          90,000,000  $       81,000,000  $   105,000,000  $      52,500,000
1998 Prince of egypt  $       101,000,000  $    117,000,000  $     70,000,000  $      35,000,000
2000 Road to Eldorado  $          50,000,000  $       25,000,000  $     95,000,000  $      47,500,000
2000 Chicken Run  $       106,000,000  $    118,000,000  $     45,000,000  $      22,500,000
2001 Shrek  $       267,000,000  $    216,000,000  $     60,000,000  $      30,000,000
2002 Spirit  $          73,000,000  $       49,000,000  $     80,000,000  $      40,000,000
   $       687,000,000  $    606,000,000  $   455,000,000  $    227,500,000
         
         
  Theatre Revenue 1,293,000,000    
  40% of Revenue 517,200,000 usual take home of Movie  
  Cost of production +Marketing 682,500,000

 

 

 

 

The debate really is about what percentage of the revenue is actually profit.  As the theatres take a chunk of that.   Also, Dreamworks used other companies to do their distribution who also took a chunk. 

I agree with you that if you take just Revenue and basic budgets, it would seem to be much more profitable than you would expect.

But, that is not the total of costs or profits.

That's actually the debate you're making, it's not the debate I'm making, nor was it ever my intent.  I'm simply showing that the numbers invested, and the returns (regardless of what percent, had to be at least what they put in, and then some) do not signify a 'small studio.'  Which gets back to the original point of, if your employer who's making a ton of money on your work, isn't showing that they value you and someone comes in and offers you a job with a salary/benefits that you think is more commensurate with your talent (ergo, market deciding salary), there should be no problems with that (which is why it's legal for companies to do just that).

I agree, I veered off the point.

 

I agree that it should be illegal for companies to stop you from pursuing other opportunities.  The reality is that some of the major companies may have had an understanding between them.  That didn't stop employees from seeking employment elswhere or in a different job.  Was that fair to the employees?  My other arguments show that for that particular employee it was probably harming them short term for sure, but the long term we will never know.  The "must have now" society that we live in today makes doing business rather difficult.  Employees make no effort to earn their way up in a company, they just jump from one company to another draining resources of the companies along the way.  Then everyone asks why everything is so expensive?  The internet has created a whole new world of pay opportunities for everyone, but also created a much higher cost to employ people.  This pretty much pushes the small companies out of the picture, as they can't compete with the larger ones.  But, when this law was made, I am sure that people didn't see the long term impacts on the businesses themselves and how the ensured freedom given to the employee would harm the greater marketplace too.



It is near the end of the end....

Landguy said:

I agree, I veered off the point.

 

I agree that it should be illegal for companies to stop you from pursuing other opportunities.  The reality is that some of the major companies may have had an understanding between them.  That didn't stop employees from seeking employment elswhere or in a different job.  Was that fair to the employees?  My other arguments show that for that particular employee it was probably harming them short term for sure, but the long term we will never know.  The "must have now" society that we live in today makes doing business rather difficult.  Employees make no effort to earn their way up in a company, they just jump from one company to another draining resources of the companies along the way.  Then everyone asks why everything is so expensive?  The internet has created a whole new world of pay opportunities for everyone, but also created a much higher cost to employ people.  This pretty much pushes the small companies out of the picture, as they can't compete with the larger ones.  But, when this law was made, I am sure that people didn't see the long term impacts on the businesses themselves and how the ensured freedom given to the employee would harm the greater marketplace too.

Now here's where this subject gets interesting, and quite frankly, I think it depends more on the forms you sign upon employment, than it does what any company can do or say about you getting employment somewhere else, for whatever reason.  I used to work for EDS (Electronic Data Systems, now an HP company), who was/is the Fiscal Agent for the Medicaid contract in our State.  When I was hired, there were indeed forms that I had to sign about not going to their competitors, due to the risk of trade secrets or whatever.  But, I think that's a far far cry from no-poaching/raiding or even the wage fixing issue.  That's a conscious decision by the new hire, to agree not to go to one of their competitors.  In that vein, I don't see that as a bad thing (and I'm sure there are other companies with equal concern over their craft being shared with others).

The interesting thing is though, that I know some folks from my own office who presumably had to sign the same forms, who DID go to a competitor, but nothing ever actually happened to them, you know what I mean?  So, I'm not entirely sure about the legal recourse from a business perspective, but such forms do exist and I've signed them.  Still, I think it's very important that such terms are openly discussed with the new hire (who then makes the decision themselves), as opposed to the situation we have going on here.  It seems very very very shady, and quite prone to abuse.



mornelithe said:

When I was hired, there were indeed forms that I had to sign about not going to their competitors, due to the risk of trade secrets or whatever.  ...

The interesting thing is though, that I know some folks from my own office who presumably had to sign the same forms, who DID go to a competitor, but nothing ever actually happened to them, you know what I mean?  So, I'm not entirely sure about the legal recourse from a business perspective, but such forms do exist and I've signed them. 

Those are almost always not enforceable.



noname2200 said:
mornelithe said:

When I was hired, there were indeed forms that I had to sign about not going to their competitors, due to the risk of trade secrets or whatever.  ...

The interesting thing is though, that I know some folks from my own office who presumably had to sign the same forms, who DID go to a competitor, but nothing ever actually happened to them, you know what I mean?  So, I'm not entirely sure about the legal recourse from a business perspective, but such forms do exist and I've signed them. 

Those are almost always not enforceable.

I didn't think so, I think we even re-hired one or two...seems like a pointless endeavor, really.