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Forums - Politics Discussion - Supreme Court justice; RBG; displays ignorance of Constitution

Figgycal said:
Uddermode said:

I don't know about you guys but shouldn't stuff like anticontraceptions and abortions be considered luxurys. Like nobody is forcing you to have relations and so why should other people pay for the stuff you choose to do. Insurance paying for abortions is like insurance paying for liposuction

This decision has nothing to do with abortions and never did. This decision was about certain types of contraceptives that prevent women from having to get abortions. It should be noted that most types of contraceptives were found cosher -- just not the morning after's or the IUD's. So it seems to me like they're picking and choosing which forms of contraceptives they have an issue with. It should also be noted that both vasectomies for men and viagra are still available under their insurance and was never made into a big issue. I think the larger problem is what this means for the future. And whether we will see other, more religious companies take more invasive steps.


Dayum!! And I always thought that when I use protection with my girlfriend, it's so that it prevents her from getting pregnant, not from having to get an abortion! Maybe it works differently in Europe and in America?

Personally, I think using contraception is a private decision and shouldn't be covered by insurance at all. It's totally absurd. It's your personal decision what you want to do, why should other people pay for it? It's not life saving, it's not preventing any kind of an illness.

 

PS. KungKras, the world needs a strong republican president after how Obama is humiliating himself and his country on the international scene. The last president who was played and fooled this much was probably Carter. Obama is one huge mistake. And the argument about more wars under republicans - I somehow haven't noticed any signs of America slowing down with wars between Obama and Bush, so this argument holds no water. Let alone the fact that the age old saying "if you want to have peace, get ready for war" is and always will be true. McCain would make for a bad ass president, but he's probably too old at this point :-/



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

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Figgycal said:
-CraZed- said:
VanceIX said:
Scisca said:
Why the fuck would your employer be forced to buy you contraception!? My God! America, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Why are corporations treated as churches now?


So your religious freedoms stop at churches do they? Just because you run a business or a corporation (which does not even necessarily mean you are a big powerful evil greedy entity, ma and pop operations regularly incorporate to protect their personal assets through corporate holdings) doesn't mean you should be forced to provide for those who work for you with contraceptives or anything else for that matter other than a mutally agreed on wage and providing as safe a work environment as possible.

Corporations are made up of people just like any other organization. Why should they be treated any differently in regards to their Constitutional rights? I know, I know because money right? Yeah Gates, Buffet, Soros they have more money each than a majority of the registered corporate entities of this country and they spend tons of money on political causes.

No corporations aren't a person. They are however, people.

And the religious beliefs of its employees that want their contraceptives covered by their insurance... don't matter? This is another case of conservatives favoring fundamentalist Christian ideology and corporations over the interest of individuals. They weren't forced to give out contraceptives by hand to each employee -- it was included as part of their insurance coverage if they chose to use it, because get this: preventing women from getting pregnant is cheaper than paying for abortions and pregnancies.

And the first ammendment is not talking just about Christianity, so the fact that this was a narrow ruling only involving contraceptives is mind boggling. What about people of other faiths who have other religious objections. An orthodox Jew refusing to cover insulin for a diabetic employee because it comes from pigs, blood transfusions, vaccinations and other medical activities that certain faiths don't agree with. They don't matter either huh? It shouldn't matter right, because the religious rights of the emplyees shouldn't be trumped by the religious rights of their bosses. Except for Christian beliefs apparently -- they deserve special treatment. Because of this ruling, a corporation's religious views in fact, do trump the religious views of its employees.This decision is literally only protecting the interest of Christian business owners who look down on contraceptives and is a blatant betrayal of the first ammendment. We will see other faiths try to pull the same act in the future.

And this ruling also sets precedence that not only are corporations people, but they also now have religious beliefs and can exempt themselves from laws they have a religious objection to. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Not if someone else is paying for them no they don't. An employer not paying for something doesn't prevent an employee from accessing that thing. ANd you are right it doesn't cover just Christians. And as crazy as you think it sounds I do believe that a Jewish organization (which they no longer reject insulin as a religion and neither do Muslims due to it being a medical necessity, also there are now alternatives to porcine insulin so it should be a non issue anyways.) should be able to choose what the insurance that they provide to their employees covers.

I am also consistent with allowing non religious employers to not supply certain medical practices based on their own objections as long as they are paying for it. And BTW its not just Christian employers who object to providing abortifacient drugs. And even if i was so what? Why should they be forced to supply it? Are they not covered under the First Amendment? An employer can't force you to not take plan B, they just can't be forced to pay for it.

This is why people need to stop asking other people to provide for them. Health care should be between a person and their medical provider. Medical insurance is anything but these days. There are ways of getting these health coverage plans through like minded individuals who share the same values as you or I do besides relying on the government or an employer. The answer is to open up the coverage markets by dropping the ban on getting insurance from out of state, allow for more options by not dictating what each plan must cover, allow for people to get just catastrophic insurance (which would be very cheap) and encourage health savings plans that aren't use or lose.  Then you could get a plan that covered all the abortion pills you like. Whoch you would pay for with thearnings you made by working for one of these evil, greedy corporations.

Again, the ruling does no such thing. It reaffirms, narrowly I might add, that people have a right to practice their religion freely and that government cannot force them to provide drugs that cause abortions (seriously look at the case, Hobby Lobby was challenging abortifacient drugs) with the medical insurance plans they offer to their employees. Just because you become a business owner or a corporate executive doesn't mean you lose your religious freedom.




Scisca said:
Figgycal said:
Uddermode said:

I don't know about you guys but shouldn't stuff like anticontraceptions and abortions be considered luxurys. Like nobody is forcing you to have relations and so why should other people pay for the stuff you choose to do. Insurance paying for abortions is like insurance paying for liposuction

This decision has nothing to do with abortions and never did. This decision was about certain types of contraceptives that prevent women from having to get abortions. It should be noted that most types of contraceptives were found cosher -- just not the morning after's or the IUD's. So it seems to me like they're picking and choosing which forms of contraceptives they have an issue with. It should also be noted that both vasectomies for men and viagra are still available under their insurance and was never made into a big issue. I think the larger problem is what this means for the future. And whether we will see other, more religious companies take more invasive steps.


Dayum!! And I always thought that when I use protection with my girlfriend, it's so that it prevents her from getting pregnant, not from having to get an abortion! Maybe it works differently in Europe and in America?

Personally, I think using contraception is a private decision and shouldn't be covered by insurance at all. It's totally absurd. It's your personal decision what you want to do, why should other people pay for it? It's not life saving, it's not preventing any kind of an illness.

 

PS. KungKras, the world needs a strong republican president after how Obama is humiliating himself and his country on the international scene. The last president who was played and fooled this much was probably Carter. Obama is one huge mistake. And the argument about more wars under republicans - I somehow haven't noticed any signs of America slowing down with wars between Obama and Bush, so this argument holds no water. Let alone the fact that the age old saying "if you want to have peace, get ready for war" is and always will be true. McCain would make for a bad ass president, but he's probably too old at this point :-/

I was looking at it from a pro-life point of view. As in the more widely used birth control is, the less likely people are to get pregnant and consequently less abortions. I've heard critics say that the types of contraception banned in this case were those that could've been seen as such, and was trying to work off of that, saying that they aren't abortions and in fact prevent them. I'm not very good with words sometimes.



Scisca said:
Why the fuck would your employer be forced to buy you contraception!? My God! America, what the fuck is wrong with you?


Maternity leave maybe? It costs companies money to replace workers. The US does a great job of controlling birthrates. If people keep working it pumps more money through the economy. If you look at it based on our GDP and worker output for a industrialized nation the US works itself like race horses. One horse blows out their leg, replace them for good.



Figgycal said:
-CraZed- said:
VanceIX said:
Scisca said:
Why the fuck would your employer be forced to buy you contraception!? My God! America, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Why are corporations treated as churches now?


So your religious freedoms stop at churches do they? Just because you run a business or a corporation (which does not even necessarily mean you are a big powerful evil greedy entity, ma and pop operations regularly incorporate to protect their personal assets through corporate holdings) doesn't mean you should be forced to provide for those who work for you with contraceptives or anything else for that matter other than a mutally agreed on wage and providing as safe a work environment as possible.

Corporations are made up of people just like any other organization. Why should they be treated any differently in regards to their Constitutional rights? I know, I know because money right? Yeah Gates, Buffet, Soros they have more money each than a majority of the registered corporate entities of this country and they spend tons of money on political causes.

No corporations aren't a person. They are however, people.

And the religious beliefs of its employees that want their contraceptives covered by their insurance... don't matter? This is another case of conservatives favoring fundamentalist Christian ideology and corporations over the interest of individuals.

Why would an "individuals" interest be any more important than a group of individuals, a corporation?  They weren't forced to give out contraceptives by hand to each employee -- it was included as part of their insurance coverage if they chose to use it, because get this: preventing women from getting pregnant is cheaper than paying for abortions and pregnancies.

They are still covering 16/20 of the contraceptives. They just didn't want to pay for abortifacients. 

And the first ammendment is not talking just about Christianity, so the fact that this was a narrow ruling only involving contraceptives is mind boggling. What about people of other faiths who have other religious objections. An orthodox Jew refusing to cover insulin for a diabetic employee because it comes from pigs, blood transfusions, vaccinations and other medical activities that certain faiths don't agree with.

Although ido believe businesses shouldn't be forcedtoo payfor that stuff. The only way that would be a valid comparison is if pregnancy was a disease.

  don't matter either huh? It shouldn't matter right, because the religious rights of the emplyees shouldn't be trumped by the religious rights of their bosses. Except for Christian beliefs apparently -- they deserve special treatment.

Believe it or not there are actually more than just Christians that are morally apposed to murdering babies. 

Because of this ruling, a corporation's religious views in fact, do trump the religious views of its employees.

So employees views should trump employer?

The only thing this ruling does is get the employer out of the employees personal business. 

This decision is literally only protecting the interest of Christian business owners who look down on contraceptives and is a blatant betrayal of the first ammendment. We will see other faiths try to pull the same act in the future.

And this ruling also sets precedence that not only are corporations people, but they also now have religious beliefs

No that was the citizens United case. And even then that's not true. That case rules they are groups of people. And of course they have constitutional right s if they didn't newspapers wouldn't be able to print their opinions. TV anchors couldn't report what the wanted. Unions couldn't donate money. Etc etc.

and can exempt themselves from laws they have a religious objection to. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

You must be. How else could you explain your egregious counter factual claims. 





 

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DarkWraith said:
SocialistSlayer said:

The Supreme court just ruled that the federal government actually can't massively overreach is power and force employers to buy contraception against their religious convictions. 

But apparently Ruth Bader ginsberg didn't get the memo. That the constitution including the first amendment does in fact apply to everyone. Not just liberals and their businesses. 

"The exercise of religion is characteristic of natural persons, not artificial legal entities," she wrote

I guess she forgot the citizens United case. 

 

It's quite a shame that our Supreme Court justices like her constantly and amply display their utter ignorance of the constitution. 

I guess she thinks the constitution only applies to one person but if you and a friend come together you lose your rights. 

How does an ignoramus like her get on the bench. 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-exempts-hobby-lobby-from-obamacare-contraception-mandate/



you need to think a bit beyond the surface level of something...for example suppose I own a business and I don't believe in medicine, does this not now mean I don't have to offer a healthcare plan with prescription medicine coverage? expand a bit further, suppose I do not believe in *standard medicine* and instead believe homeopathic "medicine" should be covered instead. now explode it...I don't believe in doctors, only GAWD ALMIGHTY can heal his flock. now what? am I not forced to offer ANY healthcare? maybe just a pamphlet to church instead? :D


Well I say you shouldn't have to.  It's your business do with it what you please.  Your employees don't have to work for you.

But still it's not a valid comparison because pregnancy is not a disease



 

-CraZed- said:
So your religious freedoms stop at churches do they? Just because you run a business or a corporation (which does not even necessarily mean you are a big powerful evil greedy entity, ma and pop operations regularly incorporate to protect their personal assets through corporate holdings) doesn't mean you should be forced to provide for those who work for you with contraceptives or anything else for that matter other than a mutally agreed on wage and providing as safe a work environment as possible.

Corporations are made up of people just like any other organization. Why should they be treated any differently in regards to their Constitutional rights? I know, I know because money right? Yeah Gates, Buffet, Soros they have more money each than a majority of the registered corporate entities of this country and they spend tons of money on political causes.

No corporations aren't a person. They are however, people.

Churches are a special case, because they operate on a non-profit basis. And yes, YOUR religious freedoms go beyond the church... but it does not extend to being forced upon your employees.

Tell me, if I get a job working for a muslim, should they be able to force me to do prayers 5 times daily, facing Mecca? By your reasoning, my refusal to do so impacts upon their religious freedom, rather than being a case of me exercising my own. How is the case of paying for health insurance that covers contraception any different?



-CraZed- said:
Again, the ruling does no such thing. It reaffirms, narrowly I might add, that people have a right to practice their religion freely and that government cannot force them to provide drugs that cause abortions (seriously look at the case, Hobby Lobby was challenging abortifacient drugs) with the medical insurance plans they offer to their employees. Just because you become a business owner or a corporate executive doesn't mean you lose your religious freedom.

People, back when there was conscription, who refused to go to war due to their religious beliefs didn't get to just go home and continue living their lives. They had to take dangerous jobs like firefighting, or allow their bodies to be used for medical trials, and things like that, instead.

"Religious belief" and conscientious objection isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card. If a company that employs people refuses to follow requirements put on it by laws because it contradicts the owners' religious beliefs, those owners are completely within their rights to cease to hire people, to stop operating as a corporation. If you are required by law to do something as a corporation and your religious beliefs contradict that, then you can do that - but you don't get to keep operating as a corporation.

If your religious beliefs contradict your obligations as a business owner, don't be a business owner.



Aielyn said:
-CraZed- said:
So your religious freedoms stop at churches do they? Just because you run a business or a corporation (which does not even necessarily mean you are a big powerful evil greedy entity, ma and pop operations regularly incorporate to protect their personal assets through corporate holdings) doesn't mean you should be forced to provide for those who work for you with contraceptives or anything else for that matter other than a mutally agreed on wage and providing as safe a work environment as possible.

Corporations are made up of people just like any other organization. Why should they be treated any differently in regards to their Constitutional rights? I know, I know because money right? Yeah Gates, Buffet, Soros they have more money each than a majority of the registered corporate entities of this country and they spend tons of money on political causes.

No corporations aren't a person. They are however, people.

Churches are a special case, because they operate on a non-profit basis. And yes, YOUR religious freedoms go beyond the church... but it does not extend to being forced upon your employees.

Tell me, if I get a job working for a muslim, should they be able to force me to do prayers 5 times daily, facing Mecca? By your reasoning, my refusal to do so impacts upon their religious freedom, rather than being a case of me exercising my own. How is the case of paying for health insurance that covers contraception any different?

You are right being employed by someone doesn't allow them to enforce their beliefs on you. How does not paying for someone elses contraceptives amount to forcing your religious views on someone? Forcing your employees to pray to Mecca =/= not paying to abort someone's indescretion in their personal life (which I thought we wanted other people out of anyways).

The idea here is that currently under US law it is legal to kill your unborn baby before it has fully incubated in the womb (state law dependant) but that employers have the right to not pay for it. In what way is this an employer forcing their religion on someone? In fact, were they to affirm the opposite of the ruling,  THAT would be forcing ones views upon another.



Aielyn said:
-CraZed- said:
Again, the ruling does no such thing. It reaffirms, narrowly I might add, that people have a right to practice their religion freely and that government cannot force them to provide drugs that cause abortions (seriously look at the case, Hobby Lobby was challenging abortifacient drugs) with the medical insurance plans they offer to their employees. Just because you become a business owner or a corporate executive doesn't mean you lose your religious freedom.

People, back when there was conscription, who refused to go to war due to their religious beliefs didn't get to just go home and continue living their lives. They had to take dangerous jobs like firefighting, or allow their bodies to be used for medical trials, and things like that, instead.

"Religious belief" and conscientious objection isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card. If a company that employs people refuses to follow requirements put on it by laws because it contradicts the owners' religious beliefs, those owners are completely within their rights to cease to hire people, to stop operating as a corporation. If you are required by law to do something as a corporation and your religious beliefs contradict that, then you can do that - but you don't get to keep operating as a corporation.

If your religious beliefs contradict your obligations as a business owner, don't be a business owner.

So now employment = conscription?

And since you can't have religious views and be a business owner then I guess all of us working folk would be conscripts in Satan's army then?

That's a joke and I'm sorry but so is your post.