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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Microsoft shows off potential power of the Cloud at BUILD

SvennoJ said:
Machiavellian said:
thismeintiel said:
OdinHades said:
A better GPU would be a much easier solution and would save millions of R&D costs. But why take the easy road, it's TEH FUTUREZZZ!

I don't know, I still don't buy all that powah of ze cloud stuff, sorry.

Completely agree with this.  Plus, this demo was heavily controlled and limited.  Now, let's move this into a real world situation, like online co-op.  Imagine if there are two or more gamers in a level, all making different decisions, with dozens of AI enemies and destructable environments.  Then, just imagine not having the fastest/most stable internet connection.  No, cloud gaming that shares large amounts of computations between local HW and cloud servers is still just a thing of the future.  Of course, by the time it becomes 100% doable in real world execution (in a decade or two), a beefier GPU will still be the much better option.

I would have to say that Gaikai/Now is a much better solution in the real world, as there is no shared computing, just streaming the A/V and your controller inputs to and from the host server.  There's also the benefit that it is 100% already proven to work. 

This is actually not correct.  This would be no different then having the game process server side with the computations for thee physics ect done by the cloud and only sending the information the users can view at any one time.  The amount of data is not big at all, if you include compression its even smaller.  The Cloud is not rendering the scene its just send the caculated data back to thee client machine.  This type of setup is not dependant so much on the speed of your connection instead of the constant sync.  Any disruption would cause little lag in the game but evven that can be smoothed  out with predictions.  It would be the same type of predictions that is used within MP games to keep things in sync.

As Gaikai being a better soltution we will see.  Both systems have their pros and cons and each solve the problem in a different way.

At the end of the demo the cloud is doing the physics for 37,000 chunks, position, velocity, rotation. Updating all those independently moving chunks at 32fps plus the geometry changes for new chunks, broken up chunks and left behind gaps is a lot more data than a h.265 compressed video stream.
And the client still needs to be able to render all that extra geometry. You're taking the physics calculation away, not the strain of rendering 37k objects.

It's a good example of how a Gaika/Onlive server can deal with high stress situations by utilizing a server farm to spread peak demand. As long as not everybody is blowing up everything at the same time, it will be a more economic solution instead of having the peak power available for each client separately. It's a tech demo of how slow down can be eliminated in a server type situation. I don't see it being practical as helping out a local machine with physics.

The data from those calculations can be heavyly compressed.  Its position data and I am sure that the data is less than a H.265 video stream.  No way to know right now since none of that info was made available but I am sure a simple demo coudl easily be done where only the input parameters need is the calculated data.  As for the Geometry, even current gen consoles could perform those calculations.   The Demo is a stress test demo more real world type of games would be no where close to those types of calculations.  Also you can limit the data based on what the view the user can see at any one time.

From my understanding Gaikia does not leverage spreading a game over multiple servers, instead, Gaikai spins up an instance of that game for each user that is playing the game.  What Gaikai could do is take the rendered output from the game and spread that out to multiple servers for processing which is pretty easy with video output.  The difference with MS solution and Gaikai is that MS solution does not need an instance of the game running for each user.  Instead one main hosted instance can be used to support multiple users as the hosted instance just neeeds to sync the streams and send the data off to be process by mutliple servers.

Another advantage of MS solution is that its not dependant on the hardware.  For Gaikai to work, the game is actually rendered on PS3 hardware.  I am sure for PS4 games, those games might need PS4 hardware as well.  MS solution can use any combination of hardware and software making the cost lower to support.



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AnthonyW86 said:
If they hade implemented a more powerfull gpu into the Xbox One they probably could have done this without the cloud.

The difference in power between the Xbone and PS4 is about 500 Gflops. To compare that's on par with three i7 quad core cpu's. If they use that for physics calculations they could run what you just saw natively on the console.

I believe what MS is trying to demostrate is that no matter how powerful of a GPU you put within a fix hardware, that fix platform will be outclass probably in the same year that its release.  We already see this with the PS4 and X1.  If you have a way to keep the fix platform performing for years to come better than what it startedd at then the console is more future proof and can stay on the market much longer without having to invest in a new device.



Machiavellian said:

From my understanding Gaikia does not leverage spreading a game over multiple servers, instead, Gaikai spins up an instance of that game for each user that is playing the game.  What Gaikai could do is take the rendered output from the game and spread that out to multiple servers for processing which is pretty easy with video output.  The difference with MS solution and Gaikai is that MS solution does not need an instance of the game running for each user.  Instead one main hosted instance can be used to support multiple users as the hosted instance just neeeds to sync the streams and send the data off to be process by mutliple servers.

Another advantage of MS solution is that its not dependant on the hardware.  For Gaikai to work, the game is actually rendered on PS3 hardware.  I am sure for PS4 games, those games might need PS4 hardware as well.  MS solution can use any combination of hardware and software making the cost lower to support.

We don't know how gaikai exactly works (i mean tech PoV, like load balancing). Besides, games don't need to run PS3 hardware. If development mashines were PCs, then i see no problem to run it on regular servers.

You also seem to forget about one very important thing - purpose. Gaikai aims to deliver sort of emulation for older games. This is only an addition, charged service for those who want to play some good, older games. And the whole thing behind this MS cloud thing is to deliver performance on the pair with PS4 for all modern games. And still, Sony has shown working Gaikai games, and more or less release date (in few months!), while MS shown nothing but simple, labolatory demo of something we might not see in this decade.



Machiavellian said:

So what you are saying is thats all a company has to do is rent thousands of servers around the world to simulate what would be required to support a game with this tech.  In order to have quality of service for anyone playing your cloud based game, you would  need servers everywhere you sell your game.  Hmmm sounds expensive to me.  

Cheaper than owning, running and maintaining these servers.

Also what you are saying that you only need is a client server setup and thats it.  You do not need a development platform that makes it easy for a developer to have a  multi-thread hosted instance where sending multiple streams of data from individual clients machines, replicate those streams  or split the data so that you can use mutliple servers to process the data, sync that data to the multiple client machines and send the completed stream back to the client.  So such a setup is something game developers can spin up or any company can just spin up in months if they decide to go down this route.  

They can indeed, it's not as difficult as you seem to want to believe it is, the servers themselves act only as a job scheduler, they receive and transmit completed computational jobs either in tandem or in batch, it HAS to be this way otherwise you would be hardcoding specific tasks to specific servers and that would make each server single purpose, increasing the operating costs exponentially.

nobody goes down this route of bothering to do so however simply because the framework is not there for it to be a viable solution (internet access, speed and stability is too big of a variable to bank on it being there).

I believe you are underestimating the work and investment needed to setup such an infrastructure.  MS already spent 3 years doing it and they still not totally ready to go to market.  Not sure why you believe this is something that can be done in a shorter time frame.

MS werent the first to do it, its been attempted multiple times before, abandoned or shelved just as many times, each time the operating costs outweigh the usefulness because the simple truth is that the variable of speed, bandwidth, latency and network availability cannot be relied upon enough for it to be a primary feature of a commercial product, as such the only thing that can be done is the storage and modification of cloud stored data as per forza 5.

Cloud computation is possible, for any device, regardless of the time and money you spend on the technology however, it pales in comparison to the very real situation of it not being worthwhile in its current form.

I believe you overestimate Microsofts ability to deliver a product that is limited in both functionality and usability by factors microsoft cannot control.

I guess in the end the difference stems from being a licensed developer for the past decade and being an armchair enthusiast.



And here's a video of Red Faction destruction from 2002.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2itEZkeiTg



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DirtyP2002 said:

so, everything online is cloud computing to you?

For everybody... it is the definition of the Cloud.



Machiavellian said:

Its easy to see that MS is not concerned about people without internet.  Actually their first plans for the X1 is a clear indication of how much MS is concerned about people without the internet.  As for MP why would you think this really make a big difference.  Sending just the calculated info can be heavely compressed.  The amount of info would be nothing even with MP.  The problem is not the amount of data or even your speed of connection but more about ping time to the server sending the info.  This is something that MS has an advantage because they have servers around the world so low pings is very possible.


Correction. MS was not concerned about people without internet. I remind you, they change their plans very quickly, after they realised how much actually people didn't like their idea. Now you tell me they are going to go even further? Good luck. They will need it.



Terlig said:
Machiavellian said:

From my understanding Gaikia does not leverage spreading a game over multiple servers, instead, Gaikai spins up an instance of that game for each user that is playing the game.  What Gaikai could do is take the rendered output from the game and spread that out to multiple servers for processing which is pretty easy with video output.  The difference with MS solution and Gaikai is that MS solution does not need an instance of the game running for each user.  Instead one main hosted instance can be used to support multiple users as the hosted instance just neeeds to sync the streams and send the data off to be process by mutliple servers.

Another advantage of MS solution is that its not dependant on the hardware.  For Gaikai to work, the game is actually rendered on PS3 hardware.  I am sure for PS4 games, those games might need PS4 hardware as well.  MS solution can use any combination of hardware and software making the cost lower to support.

We don't know how gaikai exactly works (i mean tech PoV, like load balancing). Besides, games don't need to run PS3 hardware. If development mashines were PCs, then i see no problem to run it on regular servers.

You also seem to forget about one very important thing - purpose. Gaikai aims to deliver sort of emulation for older games. This is only an addition, charged service for those who want to play some good, older games. And the whole thing behind this MS cloud thing is to deliver performance on the pair with PS4 for all modern games. And still, Sony has shown working Gaikai games, and more or less release date (in few months!), while MS shown nothing but simple, labolatory demo of something we might not see in this decade.

Actually we do know how Gaikai works.  I read an article awhile ago on the setup.  I do not expect it to change for PS3 backward compatibility.  For PS4 games there would be a need to run the Hardware because Sony did provide custom setup for the GPU/ CPU and instruction set.  

As for MS plans with their cloud compute, I believe you are narrowing their focus.  Its not about making X1 games compable with the PS4, the scope is way bigger than that.  MS want people to use their cloud service and sign up for a subscription service.  For the X1 its XBL GOLD.  Wether is cusotmers, developers or publishers.  MS want them using Azure and become dependant on its services.

Gaikai and even online has been on the market and have not set the world on fire, why people believe that Playstation now will do the same when the same issues that have held back Onlive and Gaikai still exist.  Its good tech but until it goes from beta to live, speculation how good the service will be is no better than speculation on how good cloudl compute will be.  Also believe this will take years or decade to bring to market really seem like people have a very limited view of the tech.  I do not see this happening this year but I would definitely say next year you will see more developres use the cloud compute because MS has already built the infrastructure.



lucidium said:
Machiavellian said:

So what you are saying is thats all a company has to do is rent thousands of servers around the world to simulate what would be required to support a game with this tech.  In order to have quality of service for anyone playing your cloud based game, you would  need servers everywhere you sell your game.  Hmmm sounds expensive to me.  

Cheaper than owning, running and maintaining these servers.

MachReply: MS already own and run Azure.  Azure is already making them money and profits so yes, Azure is a profit not a cost compared to another company spending money to rent servers at so many cents per hour which is purely a cost.

Also what you are saying that you only need is a client server setup and thats it.  You do not need a development platform that makes it easy for a developer to have a  multi-thread hosted instance where sending multiple streams of data from individual clients machines, replicate those streams  or split the data so that you can use mutliple servers to process the data, sync that data to the multiple client machines and send the completed stream back to the client.  So such a setup is something game developers can spin up or any company can just spin up in months if they decide to go down this route.  

They can indeed, it's not as difficult as you seem to want to believe it is, the servers themselves act only as a job scheduler, they receive and transmit completed computational jobs either in tandem or in batch, it HAS to be this way otherwise you would be hardcoding specific tasks to specific servers and that would make each server single purpose, increasing the operating costs exponentially.

MachReply: Exaclty what experience do you have development cloud based applications.  Do you think MS developers are incompedant since it took them 3 years to develop Orleans which is their cloud based development platform.  It really seems like you are making assumptions based on not actually working in this space.  There is a reason they built Orleans because creating software that performs what you just stated needs to be sync properly.  The servers do not do everything, software needs to provide the scheduling and the complexity of doing such coding needs to be made easier for faster deployment.

nobody goes down this route of bothering to do so however simply because the framework is not there for it to be a viable solution (internet access, speed and stability is too big of a variable to bank on it being there).

I believe you are underestimating the work and investment needed to setup such an infrastructure.  MS already spent 3 years doing it and they still not totally ready to go to market.  Not sure why you believe this is something that can be done in a shorter time frame.

MS werent the first to do it, its been attempted multiple times before, abandoned or shelved just as many times, each time the operating costs outweigh the usefulness because the simple truth is that the variable of speed, bandwidth, latency and network availability cannot be relied upon enough for it to be a primary feature of a commercial product, as such the only thing that can be done is the storage and modification of cloud stored data as per forza 5.

MachReply: Who exactly have tried to setup a cloud comute platform for games.  I have research this tech from the beginning so I would like to know where you are getting your data.  If anything, the net is just now becoming reliable enough to make this a reality.  MS has already spent the billions on the server setup to make it a reality.

Cloud computation is possible, for any device, regardless of the time and money you spend on the technology however, it pales in comparison to the very real situation of it not being worthwhile in its current form.

MachReply: Being possible for a device and implementation is totally different.  Cloud computation is done every day on all devices as we speak.  My company does this with our cloud based platform where our software could not run on a cell phone natively but we host an instance of the software on our servers and process calls and send the results back to the client.  The client just host the interface, UI, basic input out etc.  I have no clue what you are talking about with that statement because its not true at all.

I believe you overestimate Microsofts ability to deliver a product that is limited in both functionality and usability by factors microsoft cannot control.

I guess in the end the difference stems from being a licensed developer for the past decade and being an armchair enthusiast.

I guess the difference stems from someone also being a licensed developer who build cloud based applications and someone who is an armchair enthusiast.  I can show you my credentials and you can show me yours and we can start again without making assumptionns.



Machiavellian said:

I guess the difference stems from someone also being a licensed developer who build cloud based applications and someone who is an armchair enthusiast.  I can show you my credentials and you can show me yours and we can start again without making assumptionns.

Go right ahead, you know where my PM inbox is.

Edit - Almost an hour later and no "creds" anywhere in sight, why am i not surprised.