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Forums - Nintendo - Why streaming and cloud computing will be NINTENDOs winner in the end

fatslob-:O on 20 March 2014
torok said:
fatslob-:O said:
Another problem with cloud computing is whether or not customers are going to demand HIGHER RESOLUTIONS for cloud gaming. Streaming a game @ 4K 60FPS even with the newest video codecs such as H 265 or VP9 takes a very fast connection speeds and the current average internet speeds won't get the job done and it will be a very long time until the average internet speeds increase dramatically to support that endeavor.


Biggest problem isn't download/upload speeds. It's latency. 4K video streaming at 60 fps only demands a connection, let's say, 8 times faster than the minimum connection for a decent 1080p streaming (I'm assuming that codecs compression rate would be linear for the number of pixels. It could even be less if it isn't the case), because we would receive 4X more pixels and double the regular 30 fps of normal video streaming (it's actually 24, but it's a aceptable error). With a 5Mbps connection, 1080p streaming isn't impossible, so 40Mbps would be enough. Way possible even by today's standards.

Problem is latency. You receive a frame and take an action (press a button, etc). The console/PC/mobile needs to upload that action to the server, that will get it, update the game's state and render a new frame considering that modification and send it to you. All these data exchanges takes some miliseconds and the rendering on the server takes it too. The hard part is reduce latency so the sum of the time to send the input and the time to download the frame is less than 33 ms (at 30fps) and that isn't an easy task. The biggest chalenge in PS Now is that most PS3 games are at 30fps, so with that in mind the wouldn't be able to make the client play at a good framerate (if the original game was 60, maybe the cloud one would be at 30 and everything would be fine). I'm curious to see how they will fix this issue and probably the answer will be in their custom Cell servers.

5Mbps assumes that the game is 720p 30fps so if we assume scaling to be linear it would actually require around 80Mbps. Another issue is image quality. If we used a less lossy video codec it would dramatically increase the required connection speeds. 

The latency issue can be solved by distributing the servers LOCALLY per each city and that would increase the maintence costs too. Instead of just having ONE BIG server in one remote place you can just distribute a small segment of these servers around the city. 



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kirby007 on 20 March 2014
fatslob-:O said:
torok said:
fatslob-:O said:
Another problem with cloud computing is whether or not customers are going to demand HIGHER RESOLUTIONS for cloud gaming. Streaming a game @ 4K 60FPS even with the newest video codecs such as H 265 or VP9 takes a very fast connection speeds and the current average internet speeds won't get the job done and it will be a very long time until the average internet speeds increase dramatically to support that endeavor.


Biggest problem isn't download/upload speeds. It's latency. 4K video streaming at 60 fps only demands a connection, let's say, 8 times faster than the minimum connection for a decent 1080p streaming (I'm assuming that codecs compression rate would be linear for the number of pixels. It could even be less if it isn't the case), because we would receive 4X more pixels and double the regular 30 fps of normal video streaming (it's actually 24, but it's a aceptable error). With a 5Mbps connection, 1080p streaming isn't impossible, so 40Mbps would be enough. Way possible even by today's standards.

Problem is latency. You receive a frame and take an action (press a button, etc). The console/PC/mobile needs to upload that action to the server, that will get it, update the game's state and render a new frame considering that modification and send it to you. All these data exchanges takes some miliseconds and the rendering on the server takes it too. The hard part is reduce latency so the sum of the time to send the input and the time to download the frame is less than 33 ms (at 30fps) and that isn't an easy task. The biggest chalenge in PS Now is that most PS3 games are at 30fps, so with that in mind the wouldn't be able to make the client play at a good framerate (if the original game was 60, maybe the cloud one would be at 30 and everything would be fine). I'm curious to see how they will fix this issue and probably the answer will be in their custom Cell servers.

5Mbps assumes that the game is 720p 30fps so if we assume scaling to be linear it would actually require around 80Mbps. Another issue is image quality. If we used a less lossy video codec it would dramatically increase the required connection speeds. 

The latency issue can be solved by distributing the servers LOCALLY per each city and that would increase the maintence costs too. Instead of just having ONE BIG server in one remote place you can just distribute a small segment of these servers around the city. 

or just rent microsofts azure servers, which are already spread quite well, would solve latency
bandwidth is gonna be nothing with newer codec reducing bandwidth usage and globally increasing speeds anyway



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.

fatslob-:O on 20 March 2014
kirby007 said:

or just rent microsofts azure servers, which are already spread quite well, would solve latency
bandwidth is gonna be nothing with newer codec reducing bandwidth usage and globally increasing speeds anyway

Are you sure microsoft would just lend their servers to ANYONE ? 

We don't EVEN KNOW if they have the right equipments to pull this off ... Nintendo would still have to buy some more equipment on the hardware their going to run their games on unless they decide to adopt x86 ISA which solves some of the equipment problem but unless microsoft was planing to do cloud game streaming from the start they would have announced a service to stream some xbox 360 games already ... 

It's probably VERY likely that these servers don't contain the required hardware such as the GPUs so Nintendo would still have to invest there. 

The most ironic thing as of late is that SONY is the one MORE PREPARED for it than Microsoft's Azure as evidenced by the PS Now service so if anything Nintendo should be adopting Sony's gaikai servers to do this. 

The problem with video codecs is that there are TRADEOFF'S. What good will a highly compressed image do ANY justice to a game with very high quality graphics ? 

The more lossier the image, the image quality will take a hit. 



PlayMatt on 20 March 2014

my ass



The Bitch is back! And better then ever! #BritneyReturns

SONY Bring them BACK for PS4 and VITA!

clamburgler on 20 March 2014
RolStoppable said:
kirby, kirby, kirby...

Every time I think that you couldn't possibly make a dumber thread, you pull off something like this...

...and prove that you aren't a completely lost cause.


I bet you steal that Bruno movie quote, saying that you're the best thing from Austria since Hitler



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kirby007 on 20 March 2014
clamburgler said:
RolStoppable said:
kirby, kirby, kirby...

Every time I think that you couldn't possibly make a dumber thread, you pull off something like this...

...and prove that you aren't a completely lost cause.


I bet you steal that Bruno movie quote, saying that you're the best thing from Austria since Hitler

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

FUNFACT Rol is also known as DJ otzi



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.

torok on 21 March 2014
fatslob-:O said:

5Mbps assumes that the game is 720p 30fps so if we assume scaling to be linear it would actually require around 80Mbps. Another issue is image quality. If we used a less lossy video codec it would dramatically increase the required connection speeds. 

The latency issue can be solved by distributing the servers LOCALLY per each city and that would increase the maintence costs too. Instead of just having ONE BIG server in one remote place you can just distribute a small segment of these servers around the city. 

Yes, they will need more local servers. I believe they will use an approach with a more dynamic encoding so worse connections can still play at lower quality and better connections will get a higher quality streaming.



Bet with jetforcejiminy: PS4 will pass the Wii lifetime numbers.

D2K on 21 March 2014

I think that if any of the big 3 will make streaming and cloud gaming work it would be Microsoft because they already have the infrastructure in place.  Not to say that Nintendo couldn't pull it off, just seems less likely considering that they can't even get basic stuff like online multplayer and party chat up and running right.  Not because they don't know how, but because they don't seem to think it's necessary.



kirby007 on 22 March 2014
D2K said:

I think that if any of the big 3 will make streaming and cloud gaming work it would be Microsoft because they already have the infrastructure in place.  Not to say that Nintendo couldn't pull it off, just seems less likely considering that they can't even get basic stuff like online multplayer and party chat up and running right.  Not because they don't know how, but because they don't seem to think it's necessary.

Once the tvs can deliver the goods themselves or whatever medium we have then, Sony/MS/Nintendo just need to worry about the gaming aspect, in which Nintendo is king



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.