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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The inflection point for diminishing returns appears to be the PS3/360 generation

Launch PS4 game diff to PS3.



My 8th gen collection

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ICStats said:

Launch PS4 game diff to PS3.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-vs-xbox-360-do-you-really-need-hd/1100-6140621/
Launch 360 diff to XBox. Same story every gen.



Norris2k said:

We are still to see how far the current gen games will improve. Kilzone is 1080p. texture are very clean, effects everywhere, it's colorfull, there is no clipping.

Diminishing return is not a philosophical discussion, it's a fact. This generation mostly add a lot of memory that solve the problem of blurry textures and limitations  in map sizes. What can be done behond that ?

 

Go back and read my earlier comment. While the above image is true enough, it's only a part of the picture, since we're not talking about static, unlit, untextured models with no environment interaction.

We've not even started to hit any roof for deminishing returns.



SvennoJ said:
ICStats said:

Launch PS4 game diff to PS3.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-vs-xbox-360-do-you-really-need-hd/1100-6140621/
Launch 360 diff to XBox. Same story every gen.


Its not the same story every gen. Those were some half assed first year 360 games, so i understand where that guy was coming from. On the ps3 you would be hard pressed to find the same issue.

It seems its difficult to understand, but you are projecting yourself, and thats where your analysis goes wrong. You are a gamer ofc you can spot the differences. But, ask yourself this: Would your mum be able to spot the difference?

Your own consumer group, just like mine, is the early adopters. This issue will rear its ugly head when the time comes to appeal to the average consumer. Wether you recognise  it or not, it will be a difficult sell and its in no way on the same league of an article from last gen that evyone ignored. THe problem is quite real, and no ammount of ridiculous articles can disprove what is clear for everyone with eyes.

Its dificult to justify the price of the upgrade with just that much visible improvement.



ctalkeb said:
Norris2k said:

We are still to see how far the current gen games will improve. Kilzone is 1080p. texture are very clean, effects everywhere, it's colorfull, there is no clipping.

Diminishing return is not a philosophical discussion, it's a fact. This generation mostly add a lot of memory that solve the problem of blurry textures and limitations  in map sizes. What can be done behond that ?

 

Go back and read my earlier comment. While the above image is true enough, it's only a part of the picture, since we're not talking about static, unlit, untextured models with no environment interaction.

We've not even started to hit any roof for deminishing returns.

I read your post and I agree that "the numerous fields where we are nowhere near hitting a wall, such as animation, lighting, physics, object count, object interaction, material simulation and so forth.". But that's what dimishing return is about: require a lot more power for improvements less and less noticeable.

For example tomb raider's hair modeling is nice, but is it worth the calculation and development cost ? How much to make it really realistic ? Does it really makes a difference with what we could already enjoy on 2007 Crysis ?



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Norris2k said:
ctalkeb said:
Norris2k said:

We are still to see how far the current gen games will improve. Kilzone is 1080p. texture are very clean, effects everywhere, it's colorfull, there is no clipping.

Diminishing return is not a philosophical discussion, it's a fact. This generation mostly add a lot of memory that solve the problem of blurry textures and limitations  in map sizes. What can be done behond that ?

 

Go back and read my earlier comment. While the above image is true enough, it's only a part of the picture, since we're not talking about static, unlit, untextured models with no environment interaction.

We've not even started to hit any roof for deminishing returns.

I read your post and I agree that "the numerous fields where we are nowhere near hitting a wall, such as animation, lighting, physics, object count, object interaction, material simulation and so forth.". But that's what dimishing return is about: require a lot more power for improvements less and less noticeable.

For example tomb raider's hair modeling is nice, but is it worth the calculation and development cost ? How much to make it really realistic ? Does it really makes a difference with what we could already enjoy on 2007 Crysis ?


Well, art assets are clearly the most expensive part of developement, so implementing a physics system is clearly worth it, same with lighting. Animation, unless we see some amazing middleware out of nowhere, will be costly though. Worth it? Probably for AAA.

Personally, I'm glad that we seem to be departing the world we seemed to be heading into a few years back, when everything looked to be about AAA or F2P. What we now call "indies" is merely a return to the days of PS1/2 or even earlier PC developement.



SvennoJ said:
brendude13 said:
 

Soul Calibur 2 was not a launch title, and Syphon Filter 2 was certainly not the best the PS1 had to offer.

I believe that the jump from PS1 to PS2 was the most significant.

PS3 launch titles however didn't look that much better than late PS2 games, and is a comparable jump to what we're seeing on PS4 now.

Same as every jump, launch game vs late gen game

ps2 launch game


ps1 late gen


Yes I'm cherry picking, but you can't say at launch that we're on the path of diminishing returns.

What does have diminishing returns is trying to compare compressed screenshots in a web browser, or video footage through YouTube.

Wrong person.

But yes, I also agree that it's dumb to keep on comparing 480p screenshots when framerate and resolution is one of the biggest differences this gen.



Nem said:
SvennoJ said:
ICStats said:

Launch PS4 game diff to PS3.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-vs-xbox-360-do-you-really-need-hd/1100-6140621/
Launch 360 diff to XBox. Same story every gen.


Its not the same story every gen. Those were some half assed first year 360 games, so i understand where that guy was coming from. On the ps3 you would be hard pressed to find the same issue.

It seems its difficult to understand, but you are projecting yourself, and thats where your analysis goes wrong. You are a gamer ofc you can spot the differences. But, ask yourself this: Would your mum be able to spot the difference?

Your own consumer group, just like mine, is the early adopters. This issue will rear its ugly head when the time comes to appeal to the average consumer. Wether you recognise  it or not, it will be a difficult sell and its in no way on the same league of an article from last gen that evyone ignored. THe problem is quite real, and no ammount of ridiculous articles can disprove what is clear for everyone with eyes.

Its dificult to justify the price of the upgrade with just that much visible improvement.

My father in law mistook GT4 for real 2 generations ago, ofcourse the tvs were much smaller back then. Same thing now, you might not see that much of a difference on a 40" tv in the living room on a cross gen title, I see a big difference on my setup. Yes YouTube videos and demo pods are currently pretty much maxed out for showing improvements clearly.

And since when does the average consumer buy based on graphics? They want the new thing, with the latest games.

Let's continue this discussion in 3 to 5 years while 4K tvs are making their way into the average consumer's homes and new graphics engines have been developed.



brendude13 said:
SvennoJ said:
brendude13 said:
 

What does have diminishing returns is trying to compare compressed screenshots in a web browser, or video footage through YouTube.

Wrong person.

But yes, I also agree that it's dumb to keep on comparing 480p screenshots when framerate and resolution is one of the biggest differences this gen.

Yes, and don't forget improvements in animation, physics and simply the amount of moving and destructible objects on screen. Once the ball and chain of the cross gen ports has been cut devs can continue work on those areas.



SvennoJ said:
Nem said:


Its not the same story every gen. Those were some half assed first year 360 games, so i understand where that guy was coming from. On the ps3 you would be hard pressed to find the same issue.

It seems its difficult to understand, but you are projecting yourself, and thats where your analysis goes wrong. You are a gamer ofc you can spot the differences. But, ask yourself this: Would your mum be able to spot the difference?

Your own consumer group, just like mine, is the early adopters. This issue will rear its ugly head when the time comes to appeal to the average consumer. Wether you recognise  it or not, it will be a difficult sell and its in no way on the same league of an article from last gen that evyone ignored. THe problem is quite real, and no ammount of ridiculous articles can disprove what is clear for everyone with eyes.

Its dificult to justify the price of the upgrade with just that much visible improvement.

My father in law mistook GT4 for real 2 generations ago, ofcourse the tvs were much smaller back then. Same thing now, you might not see that much of a difference on a 40" tv in the living room on a cross gen title, I see a big difference on my setup. Yes YouTube videos and demo pods are currently pretty much maxed out for showing improvements clearly.

And since when does the average consumer buy based on graphics? They want the new thing, with the latest games.

Let's continue this discussion in 3 to 5 years while 4K tvs are making their way into the average consumer's homes and new graphics engines have been developed.


Erm... you are thinking these average consumers just want to throw their money away. You are incorrect. They do care about their money (well, the ones that arent absolutely dumb anyways). If they already have an XB360 and they look at X1 and dont see a difference they will think: Eh? I already have that, i dont see a difference. /pass

But alright. Let us see how things happen once again. One year isnt enough for you to get the head from under the sand it seems. ^^