S.T.A.G.E. said: okr said: Zekkyou said:  A lot of Sony's success came from their ability to produce games for both the family and the "mature" gamers (e.g. LBP and The Last of Us). No. Sony's fan-perceived "success" is actually solely the success of 3rd parties on their consoles, their own gaming division can't be called succesful. They're a far cry from Nintendo, Blizzard, Activision or Valve when it comes to success. OT: No, just no. Nintendo is financially far more successful than Sony's or Microsoft's gaming divisions. They don't have to take a lesson from anybody. Considered some of the top developers of all time: Polyphony Digital Sony Japan (Team ICO) Naughty Dog Sony Santamonica

This list doesn't have anything to do with my post or even your own OP. I could easily name at least thirty developers on different platforms who are considered "some of the top developers of all time".

okr said: S.T.A.G.E. said: okr said: Zekkyou said:  A lot of Sony's success came from their ability to produce games for both the family and the "mature" gamers (e.g. LBP and The Last of Us). No. Sony's fan-perceived "success" is actually solely the success of 3rd parties on their consoles, their own gaming division can't be called succesful. They're a far cry from Nintendo, Blizzard, Activision or Valve when it comes to success. OT: No, just no. Nintendo is financially far more successful than Sony's or Microsoft's gaming divisions. They don't have to take a lesson from anybody. Considered some of the top developers of all time: Polyphony Digital Sony Japan (Team ICO) Naughty Dog Sony Santamonica This list doesn't have anything to do with my post or even your own OP. I could easily name at least thirty developers on different platforms who are considered "some of the top developers of all time".

You're the one who chose to make an argument to cut down Sony when technically you're both right. Sony largely had a third party fleet and they had great first party as well. Problem is it was swallowed up by the variety of third party. He was right, Sony did have something for everyone, which is something Nintendo needs once more.

Nintendo has some  but Microsoft has Turn 10 which isn't there yet and Lionhead has fallen since Microsoft bought them.

Even IGN doesn't even have them on their list of top 50 devs. Bungie was the only applicable company Microsoft had and they are gone.

http://www.ign.com/top/video-game-makers

This thread has opened my eyes to a great many things. One thing that really stood out was the chane in Nintendo. I remember NBA Courtside With Kobe Bryant, NFL Play Action Football, Ken Griffey Jr. Baseball, and NCAA Basketball from Nintendo. I remember Eternal Darkness, Wave Race, and Rare's contributions. I also agree with the OP.

This Nintendo makes great games but it isn't the Nintendo I used to know.

S.T.A.G.E. said: You're the one who chose to make an argument to cut down Sony when technically you're both right. Sony largely had a third party fleet and they had great first party as well. Problem is it was swallowed up by the variety of third party. He was right, Sony did have something for everyone, which is something Nintendo needs once more.

I would agree if you wouldn't always claim that Nintendo "needs" this or that. Financially they don't need to expand on their portfolio. If you had said instead you wished Nintendo would create (or would let create) more new IPs which are different from their existing ones (like they did with Xenoblade),  I'd agree.

That is a fantastic and well thought out post, well done s.t.a.g.e. I fully agree with what you say, Nintendo cant get much 3rd party support so its important that they have good 2nd party games to compliment their own great library.
Now i can see that they are at least trying to address this to an extent by having Bayo 2, W 101 , Sonic exclusivity for 3 games, X and the recently announced Hyrule crossover, and there is the other rumour of a 3rd party exclusive. However as good as those games are/promise to be i feel Ninty are lacking in the FPS and driving games catagory. I would love Nintendo to obtain the services of a western 2nd party studio to make FPS/ driving games to help make Wii U more appealing to a wider audience. I think Shinen would be a perfect aquisition, who would work wonders with a bit more financial muscle.

S.T.A.G.E. said: Nintendo has some  but Microsoft has Turn 10 which isn't there yet and Lionhead has fallen since Microsoft bought them. Even IGN doesn't even have them on their list of top 50 devs. Bungie was the only applicable company Microsoft had and they are gone. http://www.ign.com/top/video-game-makers

I didn't mean only console developers or studios owned by console/handheld manufacturers. My list would include plenty of PC developers from the last 3 decades, including e.g. MicroProse, Origin Systems, Westwood Studios, LucasArts, Blizzard, Valve, id, Bioware, Bullfrog, Interplay and so on. By the way: Microsoft didn't have only Bungie but also the excellent, now also defunct RTS developer Ensemble Studios. But anyway: I think we can end our little sub-discussion about top developers here because we most probably agree on this subject anyway.

okr said: S.T.A.G.E. said: You're the one who chose to make an argument to cut down Sony when technically you're both right. Sony largely had a third party fleet and they had great first party as well. Problem is it was swallowed up by the variety of third party. He was right, Sony did have something for everyone, which is something Nintendo needs once more. I would agree if you wouldn't always claim that Nintendo "needs" this or that. Financially they don't need to expand on their portfolio. If you had said instead you wished Nintendo would create (or would let create) more new IPs which are different from their existing ones (like they did with Xenoblade),  I'd agree.

They need a western development talent to replace Rare. Rare was the exact opposite of what Nintendo was and spoke to a different market, making Nintendo a viable option to many, but theres just the diehard like today with the Wii U (because those non-gamers certainly haven't stuck around).  They need profitable games. No doubt Nintendo will have some classics this gen, but will they be profitable? I hope so, but I would bank on it not being that successful. As I stated before the fix for Nintendo is to create quick defector. Monolith cannot help them, Bayonetta cannot help them and most Japanese companies cannot. Konami is too busy with the MGS5 isnt even on the Wii U and Castlevania: LOS2 isn't even hitting the WIi U. They need some western development to make second party because even as strong as those games are they aren't touching the Wii U.

okr said: S.T.A.G.E. said: You're the one who chose to make an argument to cut down Sony when technically you're both right. Sony largely had a third party fleet and they had great first party as well. Problem is it was swallowed up by the variety of third party. He was right, Sony did have something for everyone, which is something Nintendo needs once more. I would agree if you wouldn't always claim that Nintendo "needs" this or that. Financially they don't need to expand on their portfolio. If you had said instead you wished Nintendo would create (or would let create) more new IPs which are different from their existing ones (like they did with Xenoblade),  I'd agree.

It is getting to the stage now though where Nintendo does need to make changes. They've had a run of consecutive operating losses (largely due to poor Wii I and Western 3DS sales) , which is unfathomable considering the situation they were in only a couple of years ago.

They've lost third parties and the Wii U is clearly not offering a wide enough selection of games to appeal to the market. If the company wishes to remain in the home console space, they must start creating games aimed at appealing to a Western audience.

S.T.A.G.E. said: Zekkyou said: They definitely need to start targeting a larger audience. Right now they seem to make nothing other than family friendly games. Of course being family friendly has nothing to do with the quality of an individual game, but locking yourself into it does greatly reduce the diversity of the games you can make. A lot of Sony's success came from their ability to produce games for both the family and the "mature" gamers (e.g. LBP and The Last of Us). Exactly. Nintendo also has an eye for the kids. If they want to find the kids in the new generation they can find them skipping over to the HD Twins because of the wide variety of third, second and third party content. They will need all of the second party that they can get to bolster their first party because this generation might be rather lonely for them, but they could take it to their competitors in the same way the N64 took it to the Playstation. I never knew that Sony was destroying them (aside from being a child) and I didn't care because the games were great. I noticed Nintendos dominance with the SNES though even as a very young child. All the cool games were there opposed to Sega who had the "cooler" games but lacked the third party.

The thing is though the “kids” market has greatly changed. 12 year olds want to play Call of Duty as much as they want Pokemon. Kids are a lot more mature these days than they were in the 80’s and 90’s.

Nintendo have a shit ton of money sitting around in the bank. If they want to it’s perfectly within their capabilities to fund the development of more new IPs aimed at the older gamers. They could just as easily then buy the studios that work out well for them.

It’s what Sony did, and they seem to be doing pretty well with their first party :P

S.T.A.G.E. said: Purple said: Great OP but it will never happen under Iwata. Nintendo have been winding down all western investments to focus exclusively on Japan and Japanese developers. I'm eagerly awaiting him coming out and blaming the West for poor Wii U and 3DS sales without any acknowledgement of the reason why that may be the case.   Edit: This is taken from someone else but it perfectly sums up Nintendo's attitude to Western devs.. From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers. DMA Design: Uni Racers, Body Harvest (Nintendo dropped it in 1997, Midway took it) Angel Studios: Ken Griffey Baseball, Buggie Boogie (canceled) Bits Studios: Warlocked, Riqa (canceled) Rare: Donkey Kong Country, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark Software Creations: Ken Griffey Baseball, Tin Star Silicon Knights: Eternal Darkness (N64 version) Left Field Productions: Kobey Bryant in NBA Courtside, Excitebike 64 Looking Glass Studio: Mini Racers (canceled) Mass Media: Star Craft 64 H20: Tetrisphere Saffire Corp: Nester's Funky Bowling, James Bond 007 Midway: Cruisn Series Nintendo of America also procured the Ken Griffey and MLBPA license, NHL License, Kobe Bryant and NBA license, PGA license, Disney license, James Bond license, StarCraft license. Star Wars Episode I license. They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan. That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC). Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs. Wow..that is eye opening. I knew Nintendo had issues with third parties, but damn. Iwata is really screwing the pooch.

Not even mentioning the fact that one of the very few western Nintendo devs there are, NST, was created to create games for the western market. They made 1080 and wave race for the gamecube, living up to their promise. Now all their making are Mario vs. DK games and Google Street view for Wii U. There's one more team, retro, that was supposed to make games for a western audience. They started making Metroid Prime, a western RPG a football game and another one at the same time (if mt memory serves me right). The development went slow so everything other than metroid got cancelled, and now they are making DK.