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Forums - General Discussion - Is the evolution story really scientific?

DarkWraith said:

science has nothing to do with god, true enough

logic does. a priori reasoning is exactly perfect for this task. if you define a being with certain attributes those then become true by definition for argument. these attributes can then be used as premises. for example:

1) God exists.
2) God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
3) An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
4) An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5) An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6) A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7) If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
8) Evil exists (logical contradiction).

this can be applied to any god concept to test for internal consistency and consistency with the observable world

The flaws in your argument are 6 and 7.  Your argument is tantamount to:

1) Parents love their children

2) Parents don't want their children to get hit by cars.

3) Parents know their children can get hit by cars if they leave the house.

4) Parents have the power to keep their children at home.

5) Parents who love their children don't let them leave the house.

Do you see the flaw there? You are making the assumption that if you have the motivation and the power, you can be lead to only a single conclusion. 

God created us with free will. Does he want us to be evil? No. But if he created us without the ability to make bad decisions, we'd be without free will. Just like parents allow their children to leave the house, even though it's less safe than being at home, he has given us the ability to decide our own fates. 



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Yes, there is a tremendous amount of evidence for evolution. Just look at DNA, the fins of the fish, are the same part of the DNA where we have hands, eyes are the same, brain, digestive system etc.

Just look at a human fetus, as they go through evolution in the womb, when they have eyes that migrate from the top of their head, how their tails get shorter till they are completely withing the body, and the development of legs, arms and hands. It's really clear and obvious.

I believe you are free to not believe if you so choose. But if one tries to teach one's faith as a science, then they are doing grave harm to the world. That's why we had a 'dark ages' and why the USA is currently way behind certain kind of sciences right now. Many people are suffering and could be treated for things like blindness and diabetes if the USA has not been blocked by certain religious groups. Not everyone can afford to travel abroad fro treatments.

Faith is a choice to have beliefs without any evidence. That's fine, it comforts many people when they lose a loved one and in other situations. Science is the not the enemy, ignorance is.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

DarkWraith said:
jigokutamago said:
DarkWraith said:
mysticwolf said:
theprof00 said:
Fascinating.
And what scientific evidence do we have about God?

The scientific method is about disproving things so we have a narrower view of what the reality is.

Currently I believe science cannot disprove God. 



science has nothing to do with god, true enough

logic does. a priori reasoning is exactly perfect for this task. if you define a being with certain attributes those then become true by definition for argument. these attributes can then be used as premises. for example:

1) God exists.
2) God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
3) An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
4) An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5) An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6) A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7) If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
8) Evil exists (logical contradiction).

this can be applied to any god concept to test for internal consistency and consistency with the observable world

The problem is that you have not proved evil exists.

In my opinion evil is the lack of good like darkness is the lack of light. Just as darkness is nonexistant, evil is also nonexistant. If the existance of evil cannot be proven, then the nonexistance of God likewise cannot be proven.



ive heard this asinine argument before. its still stupid, when will you people learn? a photon is something - yes, great (light). darkness is the absence of photons (great).

what is good? what is bad? its a false analogy. neither one is anything but a concept. didnt realize I had to prove obvious things. do evil acts exist? yes - murder, rape, assault.

im sorry for totally destroying your counter so as to be unrecognizable from a small pile of dogshit but I can tell you actually thought it held some credence. I actually feel sorry for how uninformed you are.

Not to say you are wrong or anything, but it is my understanding that these acts of murder, rape, assault are caused by lack of self control, knowlege, and/or guidance. For example, when you are ignorant, you lack pieces of knowlege rather than having pieces of ignorance.



WTF did i just read? Not trying to be mean or offensive but really, if you don't look and care about facts. Really their is a personally journey of learning you must do on your own, no one can tell you different at this point. One thing i can point out is we Evolved spirituality in our brains. we evolved it to deal with anxiety, stress of our understanding of death.

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Of course Jesus would say that.

Jereel Hunter said:

Physical laws are the same. Liquids grow more dense as it gets colder... except water. It grows more dense to a point, but when it reaches freezing temperature, it instead expands, causeing ice to float, and thus create a protective layer at the top of bodies of water, instead of turning lakes and rivers into huge blocks of ice and killing everything in them.

I won't comment on the rest cause I'd rather not get into another discussion, but this is a very prevalent argument and it includes a misconception. Water is not the only anomalous liquid. There are, infact, many other substances known to also behave like this and some others expected to by simulations, besides many more untested, I'd expect.

This study is concerned with modeling water, but it mentions on it's introduction how other tetrahedrally-bonded molecular liquids can have such anomalities: http://www.if.ufrgs.br/~barbosa/lattice-3d.pdf

These liquids, by the way, water included, are actually way more impressive than just this. They have quite a few other "weird" properties.

Also, I'm not too sure big bodies of water, and specially oceans would really freeze over if ice didn't float. Sure it seems like something "everyone knows" but I'd be interested in finding some actual models and scenarios, if any is even feasible.

First, there would a ton of complications, like maybe more water on the atmosphere which is hard to predict the exact effect of. There's also the fact that if ice just didn't float that would mean some very fundamental properties of chemestry itself would have to be different, with limitless implications, making analisys of the consequences pretty  much impossible. So perhaps it's easier to imagine water being replaced by some other similar liquid which just doesn't have this property. Similar as in same triple-point, same fusion point, same specific heat, similar densities on some range, etc.

Even them, for one, the ocean is a HUGE thermal resovoir and even whithout the floating of ice you'd need to get vast expanses of it down to the cooling point in order to freeze anything (besides shores, that is), and that's quite a bit below the ocean's current mean temperature. Freezing the ocean at warm areas would seem specailly hard. It's not clear to me that the loss of ice caps would be able to do this at all. Also, this would depend a lot on the specifics, but frozen salt "water" tends to loose it's salt content, which would artificially lower ice's density compared to that of "water". This just might be enough to actually form some kind of an ice cap, if thinner, but I have no idea wether this would be the case, and this would need water to already be at a cooling point to even happen. Another point is that ice forming out of the ocean or on shores could "slide" into it way before the ocean had any semblance of a chance of cooling enough, which would create and extra cap. How relevant this might be I don't know.

Even if simply replacing water with such liquid might mean the freezing of the oceans on earth simply making taking planet a little closer to the sun, or near a "warmer" star, or a planet with bigger oceans or different atmosphere or whatever might be ways to make sure the "oceans" don't freeze. We could also just change the specifics of such liquid. So this idea of water, this single mystical molecule, being absolutely essential to life anywhere is very arrogant and not at all based on fact. Hell, life might not even need oceans at all.

I mean, sure, humans wouldn't exist if some other anomalous liquid took the place of water (temperatures would have to be different too and so on). Neither would we exist if ice sunk, but this means absolutelly nothing at all unless you require humans to be the goal of the universe, which is kind of begging the question: saying that a universe meant for the existence of humans has been made so that humans can exist isn't really saying much.



Jereel Hunter said:

I've never thought the ability of already existing organisms to evolve was really a blow to the idea of creation. If someone designed a robot, and gave it complex enough programming that it could learn, and eventually enhance itself to deal with problems that it wasn't previously built for, it wouldn't be proof that the robot came about by itself, but rather that the designer was just... amazing at what he does. People don't want to believe in God, so they claim belief in him isn't scientific, and instead turn to theories which need to disregard the scientific method to be thought of as fact. 

Even if species can evolve, the idea that living organisms began from completely non-living matter doesn't have any concrete evidence backing it up, as it can't be replicated.

Even if that could happen, what if you suddenly had 1 lone, single celled organism suddenly spring to life? What do you suppose happens next? Oh right, it dies. it doesn't reproduce for generations until it becomes more advanced. How would it?

It's interesting about things that evolve. They generally evolve for the good of the planet, not the good of themselves.

Horrible BP Oil spill in the gulf of mexico? Oh look, some bacteria at some point evolved to break down and consume crude oil.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130408152733.htm

Terrible nuclear disaster at Chernobyl? Apparently some fungi evolved as some point to eat harmful radiation.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070522210932.htm

We have a world full of creatures whose apparent evolutions contribute to the sustained balance of the planet. Physical laws are the same. Liquids grow more dense as it gets colder... except water. It grows more dense to a point, but when it reaches freezing temperature, it instead expands, causeing ice to float, and thus create a protective layer at the top of bodies of water, instead of turning lakes and rivers into huge blocks of ice and killing everything in them. 

Actually, how people feel reminds me of a short story Asimov wrote. 2 guys arrive at a space station, and the robotic crew is led by a robot that doesn't believe the humans tales of the outside universe. He's not interested in their lies, and doesn't believe that these crude beings could have invented something like him. In the end they let him believe what he wants because he's still doing his job.  (just looked it up, it was called 'Reason') It seems like the story is showing the atheist view of the world. The Robots demanded absolute proof, right then and there, that they had been created by humans, otherwise, why should they believe it? They were logical, reasoning beings, but as far as they were concerned, the space station had been there since before they had come into existence, and always would be. They weren't entirely sure of the other details, but one thing they were sure of - that these fragile, flawed biological organisms weren't responsible for their existence. In the end, the crew left them to their ignorance (not even bothering to collect proof and send it later). It's funny, because Asimov was an athiest, and yet his story seemed like it was poking fun at their views.

Go back to study biology and see the theory of the "soup of life" and how it was reproduced in lab... basically show organic chemic components bonding together and becoming unicelular organism that reproduced.



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DonFerrari said:
Jereel Hunter said:

I've never thought the ability of already existing organisms to evolve was really a blow to the idea of creation. If someone designed a robot, and gave it complex enough programming that it could learn, and eventually enhance itself to deal with problems that it wasn't previously built for, it wouldn't be proof that the robot came about by itself, but rather that the designer was just... amazing at what he does. People don't want to believe in God, so they claim belief in him isn't scientific, and instead turn to theories which need to disregard the scientific method to be thought of as fact. 

Even if species can evolve, the idea that living organisms began from completely non-living matter doesn't have any concrete evidence backing it up, as it can't be replicated.

Even if that could happen, what if you suddenly had 1 lone, single celled organism suddenly spring to life? What do you suppose happens next? Oh right, it dies. it doesn't reproduce for generations until it becomes more advanced. How would it?

It's interesting about things that evolve. They generally evolve for the good of the planet, not the good of themselves.

Horrible BP Oil spill in the gulf of mexico? Oh look, some bacteria at some point evolved to break down and consume crude oil.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130408152733.htm

Terrible nuclear disaster at Chernobyl? Apparently some fungi evolved as some point to eat harmful radiation.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070522210932.htm

We have a world full of creatures whose apparent evolutions contribute to the sustained balance of the planet. Physical laws are the same. Liquids grow more dense as it gets colder... except water. It grows more dense to a point, but when it reaches freezing temperature, it instead expands, causeing ice to float, and thus create a protective layer at the top of bodies of water, instead of turning lakes and rivers into huge blocks of ice and killing everything in them. 

Actually, how people feel reminds me of a short story Asimov wrote. 2 guys arrive at a space station, and the robotic crew is led by a robot that doesn't believe the humans tales of the outside universe. He's not interested in their lies, and doesn't believe that these crude beings could have invented something like him. In the end they let him believe what he wants because he's still doing his job.  (just looked it up, it was called 'Reason') It seems like the story is showing the atheist view of the world. The Robots demanded absolute proof, right then and there, that they had been created by humans, otherwise, why should they believe it? They were logical, reasoning beings, but as far as they were concerned, the space station had been there since before they had come into existence, and always would be. They weren't entirely sure of the other details, but one thing they were sure of - that these fragile, flawed biological organisms weren't responsible for their existence. In the end, the crew left them to their ignorance (not even bothering to collect proof and send it later). It's funny, because Asimov was an athiest, and yet his story seemed like it was poking fun at their views.

Go back to study biology and see the theory of the "soup of life" and how it was reproduced in lab... basically show organic chemic components bonding together and becoming unicelular organism that reproduced.

Good example - except these experiments can't be replicated, and even those results were an organism (or so it's claimed) that immediately died. Even in a controlled environment they can't kick start the sustained life of a single celled organism. 



Farmageddon said:

Of course Jesus would say that.

Jereel Hunter said:

Physical laws are the same. Liquids grow more dense as it gets colder... except water. It grows more dense to a point, but when it reaches freezing temperature, it instead expands, causeing ice to float, and thus create a protective layer at the top of bodies of water, instead of turning lakes and rivers into huge blocks of ice and killing everything in them.

I won't comment on the rest cause I'd rather not get into another discussion, but this is a very prevalent argument and it includes a misconception. Water is not the only anomalous liquid. There are, infact, many other substances known to also behave like this and some others expected to by simulations, besides many more untested, I'd expect.

This study is concerned with modeling water, but it mentions on it's introduction how other tetrahedrally-bonded molecular liquids can have such anomalities: http://www.if.ufrgs.br/~barbosa/lattice-3d.pdf

These liquids, by the way, water included, are actually way more impressive than just this. They have quite a few other "weird" properties.

Also, I'm not too sure big bodies of water, and specially oceans would really freeze over if ice didn't float. Sure it seems like something "everyone knows" but I'd be interested in finding some actual models and scenarios, if any is even feasible.

First, there would a ton of complications, like maybe more water on the atmosphere which is hard to predict the exact effect of. There's also the fact that if ice just didn't float that would mean some very fundamental properties of chemestry itself would have to be different, with limitless implications, making analisys of the consequences pretty  much impossible. So perhaps it's easier to imagine water being replaced by some other similar liquid which just doesn't have this property. Similar as in same triple-point, same fusion point, same specific heat, similar densities on some range, etc.

Even them, for one, the ocean is a HUGE thermal resovoir and even whithout the floating of ice you'd need to get vast expanses of it down to the cooling point in order to freeze anything (besides shores, that is), and that's quite a bit below the ocean's current mean temperature. Freezing the ocean at warm areas would seem specailly hard. It's not clear to me that the loss of ice caps would be able to do this at all. Also, this would depend a lot on the specifics, but frozen salt "water" tends to loose it's salt content, which would artificially lower ice's density compared to that of "water". This just might be enough to actually form some kind of an ice cap, if thinner, but I have no idea wether this would be the case, and this would need water to already be at a cooling point to even happen. Another point is that ice forming out of the ocean or on shores could "slide" into it way before the ocean had any semblance of a chance of cooling enough, which would create and extra cap. How relevant this might be I don't know.

Even if simply replacing water with such liquid might mean the freezing of the oceans on earth simply making taking planet a little closer to the sun, or near a "warmer" star, or a planet with bigger oceans or different atmosphere or whatever might be ways to make sure the "oceans" don't freeze. We could also just change the specifics of such liquid. So this idea of water, this single mystical molecule, being absolutely essential to life anywhere is very arrogant and not at all based on fact. Hell, life might not even need oceans at all.

I mean, sure, humans wouldn't exist if some other anomalous liquid took the place of water (temperatures would have to be different too and so on). Neither would we exist if ice sunk, but this means absolutelly nothing at all unless you require humans to be the goal of the universe, which is kind of begging the question: saying that a universe meant for the existence of humans has been made so that humans can exist isn't really saying much.

First of all, I only mentioned lakes and rivers - oceans may not be cold enough to freeze, but they wouldn't have to be. Liquids which grow denser with cold can 'change state by compression. (i.e. to get liquid nitrogen, you compress nitrogen). So the deep ocean, which is cold, and under extreme pressure, would likely freeze under these different circumstances. 

As for "this idea of water, this single mystical molecule, being absolutely essential to life anywhere is very arrogant and not at all based on fact. Hell, life might not even need oceans at all." - Water is essential for OUR lives, and the lives of most organisms on this planet. Maybe not any form of life that could theoretically exist, but that is outside the scope of seeing how finely tuned the laws of nature are to OUR existence. 

And the idea of believing in a creator means that yes, human existence is the primary purpose for the universe's creation. 



About water being important to life in earth, that is because it's available here. The same for Carbon being the base for organic matter. There are experiments using Nitrogen or Silica as base (don't remember it fully).

Its more like beings in earth evolved using water as important part because there is water here than we just have life here because of water...

But that is all pretty in development.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

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Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."