By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming - John Carmack: 360 and PS3 were 'far from tapped out'

walsufnir said:
ClassicGamingWizzz said:
walsufnir said:
ClassicGamingWizzz said:
walsufnir said:
ClassicGamingWizzz said:
i think this guy have mental problems


Yes, sure, a coding-genius and prodigy whose mental capabilities exceed yours by far has mental problems because you disagree with his opinion. Read his twitter account and try to even remotely understand what he talks about.


a  genius can have mental problems , if you want games with 20 fps most of the time, textures that pop after 4 seconds , etc be my guest and stay with ps3/360 forever, if even naughty dog cant make a game with 30 fps locked all time( last of us )  what have this gen more to give in terms of power?

all devs wanted new consoles but here comes mister coding genius saying that so much juice in this gen


You don't get what he says: "The 360 and PS3 are far from tapped out in terms of what a developer could do with them, but the whole world's gonna move over towards next-gen and high-end PCs and all these other things."

He is not explicitely talking about performance or way better graphics, he talks about possibilities for developers which is *not* necessarily "beating naughty dog/343i".

then tell me what are those possibilities for devs ? if its not performance what is there in ps3 or 360 left ? he is talking about fully understanding the machines , to me time passed and he and idSoft did nothing in this gen and he is buthurt about it, they released a game, full of problems on pc and not the best performance on ps3 , then he blamed the ps3 and sony for the problems and now he wants this gen to last longer.

 

http://www.gamersmint.com/ps3-has-tight-memory-poor-io-performance-john-carmack


New engine ideas, new rendering techniques, things you and me perhaps don't think of. I see what you are trying to say but I think you totally misunderstood him. But if you would really care then you should ask him via twitter.

And I see no reason to sh** on him or id software just because Rage didn't turn out to be what it used to be. Especially you don't seem to like him because he said something negative about PS3 which is laughable, really.

 

Edit: A nice blogpost from a rendering technique guy: http://c0de517e.blogspot.de/2013/12/shit-people-say-graphics-have-peaked.html


There's nothing the current gen consoles can do that the next gen consoles cannot do. So why wait? New engines would still benefit from mpre powerful consoles. If anything, he just wanted time to try and redeem himself. 





Around the Network

Am I the only one who still gets amazed at the graphics when I play some PS1 and PS2 games?



20happyballs said:


i don't need to understand graphics to be able to tell what looks good and what doesn't. i have eyes and a perfectly competent brain. I think that gives me the right to judge. When Rage came out, it wasn't even impressive. I had it for my gaming pc and not only was it less than stellar visually, but it was riddled with performance issues and other technical problems. I believe that Uncharted 2 and even GOW3 were out before that game. Its widely accepted that those games look better.


You don't seem to get the difference. Technical wonderful things can look bad while very simple baked things can look good. That's what I tried to say. You are only judging by art and style, not by technology.



20happyballs said:
walsufnir said:


New engine ideas, new rendering techniques, things you and me perhaps don't think of. I see what you are trying to say but I think you totally misunderstood him. But if you would really care then you should ask him via twitter.

And I see no reason to sh** on him or id software just because Rage didn't turn out to be what it used to be. Especially you don't seem to like him because he said something negative about PS3 which is laughable, really.

 

Edit: A nice blogpost from a rendering technique guy: http://c0de517e.blogspot.de/2013/12/shit-people-say-graphics-have-peaked.html


There's nothing the current gen consoles can do that the next gen consoles cannot do. So why wait? New engines would still benefit from mpre powerful consoles. If anything, he just wanted time to try and redeem himself.


He doesn't say you should wait. He just said they are "far from tapped out". The text in the article "Carmack seems to feel that you can only really move on from a generation once you've full mastered the previous one." is pure speculation and doesn't reflect what Carmack said.

And really, he has nothing to prove for people like you and me - his work was and is still important for the whole industry. If you won't accept that, nobody cares. It doesn't change the facts.



Licence said:
Pemalite said:
curl-6 said:
ghettoglamour said:
If you look at Rage, yes, he's right.

But not if you look at Beyond Two Souls, God of War Ascension, or Halo 4. ;)


To be fair, I doubt any of them run at 60fps.
Rage could look *much* better if they cut the framerate in half.

I believe Carmack said that Doom 4 would look much better than Rage, because it would target 30fps. Allthough I'm not exactly sure what's the latest with that.


One would hope.
The only other FPS that I can think of that runs at 60fps on consoles is Call of Duty, they are also not known as graphical power houses, however Rage has far better draw distances amongst other things...
To Id softwares credit, they did do an amazing job with demonstrating the possibilities of Mega-texturing, should be interesting to see what happens with that technology in this coming console cycle, I'm expecting console gamers are wanting more PC-like levels of graphical fidelity, to match PC textures, they're going to have to use it more prominently.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Around the Network
walsufnir said:
20happyballs said:


i don't need to understand graphics to be able to tell what looks good and what doesn't. i have eyes and a perfectly competent brain. I think that gives me the right to judge. When Rage came out, it wasn't even impressive. I had it for my gaming pc and not only was it less than stellar visually, but it was riddled with performance issues and other technical problems. I believe that Uncharted 2 and even GOW3 were out before that game. Its widely accepted that those games look better.


You don't seem to get the difference. Technical wonderful things can look bad while very simple baked things can look good. That's what I tried to say. You are only judging by art and style, not by technology.

 

In terms of graphics technology, why waste time on technology that doesn't benefit the visuals? It takes brains to decide what technology should or shouldn't be used to get the best results. And even from a technical point of view, I don't know how you can argue that Rage was more technically impressive than other games. Sure, their approach to texture mapping was something new, but it didn't really help and from what I've heard, it also made the game harder to develop. Coding should balance of efficiency and quality. Rage's engine seemed to lack both. IMO, the approach he took with their engine was not the smartest choice because results is what matter most. The thing is, you can add new rendering possibilities to an engine with more power. But those possibilities also require more technical prowess. Im not sure if its him who said it, but I think I remember him saying that only really smart coders will be able to take advantage of the increases in power they will be getting to work with. If you really want to see who's the smartest, then you need to start looking at the new game engines. 

 





20happyballs said:
walsufnir said:
20happyballs said:


i don't need to understand graphics to be able to tell what looks good and what doesn't. i have eyes and a perfectly competent brain. I think that gives me the right to judge. When Rage came out, it wasn't even impressive. I had it for my gaming pc and not only was it less than stellar visually, but it was riddled with performance issues and other technical problems. I believe that Uncharted 2 and even GOW3 were out before that game. Its widely accepted that those games look better.


You don't seem to get the difference. Technical wonderful things can look bad while very simple baked things can look good. That's what I tried to say. You are only judging by art and style, not by technology.

 

In terms of graphics technology, why waste time on technology that doesn't benefit the visuals? It takes brains to decide what technology should or shouldn't be used to get the best results. And even from a technical point of view, I don't know how you can argue that Rage was more technically impressive than other games. Sure, their approach to texture mapping was something new, but it didn't really help and from what I've heard, it also made the game harder to develop. Coding should balance of efficiency and quality. Rage's engine seemed to lack both. IMO, the approach he took with their engine was not the smartest choice because results is what matter most. The thing is, you can add new rendering possibilities to an engine with more power. But those possibilities also require more technical prowess. Im not sure if its him who said it, but I think I remember him saying that only really smart coders will be able to take advantage of the increases in power they will be getting to work with. If you really want to see who's the smartest, then you need to start looking at the new game engines. 

 

 

" And even from a technical point of view, I don't know how you can argue that Rage was more technically impressive than other games " Show me where I did so.

And I don't think that you are in the position to say what coding should do - it's up to the coders to decide. Judging *after* something is done is especially easy, in my opinion. You can do it better? Do so and share your research and results with us.

Also, you are never "wasting" time for new techniques. Now everybody knows that the Rage-approach with this implemetation was perhaps the wrong decision so if another person might get the same idea he knows he has to do it in a different way.



walsufnir said:
20happyballs said:
walsufnir said:
20happyballs said:


i don't need to understand graphics to be able to tell what looks good and what doesn't. i have eyes and a perfectly competent brain. I think that gives me the right to judge. When Rage came out, it wasn't even impressive. I had it for my gaming pc and not only was it less than stellar visually, but it was riddled with performance issues and other technical problems. I believe that Uncharted 2 and even GOW3 were out before that game. Its widely accepted that those games look better.


You don't seem to get the difference. Technical wonderful things can look bad while very simple baked things can look good. That's what I tried to say. You are only judging by art and style, not by technology.

 

In terms of graphics technology, why waste time on technology that doesn't benefit the visuals? It takes brains to decide what technology should or shouldn't be used to get the best results. And even from a technical point of view, I don't know how you can argue that Rage was more technically impressive than other games. Sure, their approach to texture mapping was something new, but it didn't really help and from what I've heard, it also made the game harder to develop. Coding should balance of efficiency and quality. Rage's engine seemed to lack both. IMO, the approach he took with their engine was not the smartest choice because results is what matter most. The thing is, you can add new rendering possibilities to an engine with more power. But those possibilities also require more technical prowess. Im not sure if its him who said it, but I think I remember him saying that only really smart coders will be able to take advantage of the increases in power they will be getting to work with. If you really want to see who's the smartest, then you need to start looking at the new game engines. 

 

 

" And even from a technical point of view, I don't know how you can argue that Rage was more technically impressive than other games " Show me where I did so.

And I don't think that you are in the position to say what coding should do - it's up to the coders to decide. Judging *after* something is done is especially easy, in my opinion. You can do it better? Do so and share your research and results with us.

Also, you are never "wasting" time for new techniques. Now everybody knows that the Rage-approach with this implemetation was perhaps the wrong decision so if another person might get the same idea he knows he has to do it in a different way.

 

It's very possible that other coders thought about the approach he took but knew, before even trying, that it wouldn't yield great results. It's also very possible that the engine itself was the reason their development cycle took soo long. If he was really smart, maybe he wouldn't have taken that approach. 





VGPolyglot said:
Am I the only one who still gets amazed at the graphics when I play some PS1 and PS2 games?

Nope.  I'm aware of the advances and how far we've come but I still think to myself--"Wow.  I'm controlling what's going on on my TV".  Even Super Mario 64.  I think of the 8-bit days and then I play SM64 (not the first to do this, of course) and I'm impressed that there's a whole world on the screen.  I look up and there's sky.  I look down, and there's a stream.  In the water, there's fish.  I can climb trees or chase bunnies.  The whole thing just floors me sometimes.

 I guess that's why I'm one of those guys that doesn't care so much about frames per second or resolution.  It's all impressive and I can detect quality but I tend to appreciate what a game gets right more than the superficial stuff it gets wrong.  And it just keeps getting better and better.  From the slide show cinematics of Ninja Gaiden on the Nes to the movie-like production values of Beyond Two Souls.  I love it.



20happyballs said:
walsufnir said:
20happyballs said:
walsufnir said:
20happyballs said:


i don't need to understand graphics to be able to tell what looks good and what doesn't. i have eyes and a perfectly competent brain. I think that gives me the right to judge. When Rage came out, it wasn't even impressive. I had it for my gaming pc and not only was it less than stellar visually, but it was riddled with performance issues and other technical problems. I believe that Uncharted 2 and even GOW3 were out before that game. Its widely accepted that those games look better.


You don't seem to get the difference. Technical wonderful things can look bad while very simple baked things can look good. That's what I tried to say. You are only judging by art and style, not by technology.

 

In terms of graphics technology, why waste time on technology that doesn't benefit the visuals? It takes brains to decide what technology should or shouldn't be used to get the best results. And even from a technical point of view, I don't know how you can argue that Rage was more technically impressive than other games. Sure, their approach to texture mapping was something new, but it didn't really help and from what I've heard, it also made the game harder to develop. Coding should balance of efficiency and quality. Rage's engine seemed to lack both. IMO, the approach he took with their engine was not the smartest choice because results is what matter most. The thing is, you can add new rendering possibilities to an engine with more power. But those possibilities also require more technical prowess. Im not sure if its him who said it, but I think I remember him saying that only really smart coders will be able to take advantage of the increases in power they will be getting to work with. If you really want to see who's the smartest, then you need to start looking at the new game engines. 

 

 

" And even from a technical point of view, I don't know how you can argue that Rage was more technically impressive than other games " Show me where I did so.

And I don't think that you are in the position to say what coding should do - it's up to the coders to decide. Judging *after* something is done is especially easy, in my opinion. You can do it better? Do so and share your research and results with us.

Also, you are never "wasting" time for new techniques. Now everybody knows that the Rage-approach with this implemetation was perhaps the wrong decision so if another person might get the same idea he knows he has to do it in a different way.

 

It's very possible that other coders thought about the approach he took but knew, before even trying, that it wouldn't yield great results. It's also very possible that the engine itself was the reason their development cycle took soo long. If he was really smart, maybe he wouldn't have taken that approach.


What? Ok, now it gets ridiculous. You only know *afterwards* if your idea wasn't the way you expected. Given that this is industry and business we are talking about and not science where you can spend as much money and time as you wish you even have to ship if your expectations aren't met. It is not smart to say that smart people don't make mistakes.