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Forums - Politics Discussion - Are Democracy and economic equality fundamentally incompatible?

 

Are Democracy and economic equality fundamentally incompatible?

Yes 43 40.57%
 
No 40 37.74%
 
Its Grey. 22 20.75%
 
Total:105
Netyaroze said:
sc94597 said:
Netyaroze said:
sc94597 said:
Netyaroze said:
There is only one solution to all of that. We need to invent robot workers that can do any work task. That way everybody can be rich.

Only if the state has a monopoly on these workers, the means of production, and redistrubtes the product of their work, equally. All of which would be unlikely. The issue isn't that work isn't being done, but rather how efficiently it is done and the means and numbers by which the product is distributed.

The economic calculation problem acts as an obstacle (some say "makes it impossible") for planners to efficiently determine which areas of production are most valuable. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

 

It doesn`t matter how the distribution is if there are 10 robot workers per human everybody will be able to consume anything their heart desires. Amassing money will become pointless. If you can build those robots out of easily attainable material you can build workers that build workers they will cost only the energy cost as anything else will be done by the robots themselfs. We could build 100 Billion robot workers for 10 Billion people. They can easily produce enough to make everyone rich by todays standards. Its just a question of energy and technology in the end. Also there is the fear factor of losing control to the robots at one point.

Resources are still limited in your scenario. People would still have to trade. 


Not necessarily. We can easily send those robots into space cheap in tiny capsules without lifesupport and way back to earth who then can mine asteroids and send anything of value back to earth. They could get their energy throúgh the sun in space.  The ressource problem wouldn`t be that big of a deal if we would harness energy and material in space through the robots.

Different people will have different robots suited to this, based on the resources they've attained on earth. Some people can have robots that are more suitable to mining asteroids, and are more efficient. In your scenario nobody is poor, but not everybody is equal as well. 



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sc94597 said:
Netyaroze said:
sc94597 said:
Netyaroze said:
sc94597 said:
Netyaroze said:
There is only one solution to all of that. We need to invent robot workers that can do any work task. That way everybody can be rich.

Only if the state has a monopoly on these workers, the means of production, and redistrubtes the product of their work, equally. All of which would be unlikely. The issue isn't that work isn't being done, but rather how efficiently it is done and the means and numbers by which the product is distributed.

The economic calculation problem acts as an obstacle (some say "makes it impossible") for planners to efficiently determine which areas of production are most valuable. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

 

It doesn`t matter how the distribution is if there are 10 robot workers per human everybody will be able to consume anything their heart desires. Amassing money will become pointless. If you can build those robots out of easily attainable material you can build workers that build workers they will cost only the energy cost as anything else will be done by the robots themselfs. We could build 100 Billion robot workers for 10 Billion people. They can easily produce enough to make everyone rich by todays standards. Its just a question of energy and technology in the end. Also there is the fear factor of losing control to the robots at one point.

Resources are still limited in your scenario. People would still have to trade. 


Not necessarily. We can easily send those robots into space cheap in tiny capsules without lifesupport and way back to earth who then can mine asteroids and send anything of value back to earth. They could get their energy throúgh the sun in space.  The ressource problem wouldn`t be that big of a deal if we would harness energy and material in space through the robots.

Different people will have different robots suited to this, based on the resources they've attained on earth. Some people can have robots that are more suitable to mining asteroids, and are more efficient. In your scenario nobody is poor, but not everybody is equal as well. 

People will not be directly involved in the production of robots we will just hardwire them to instinctivly care for us. We will not posses any of the robots they will do their thing and since they are robots they will have less needs then we do just energy and there is plenty of it in space. The robots will go on doing their thing like conquering the galaxy and keep us as pets. We will be like animals in a zoo and be taken care of perfectly all our needs will be satisfied like a Pandas need in a chinese zoo.



A resounding "no" and it's quite trivial to establish its proof.

1. Democracy allows for any economic system.
2. State Socialism is an economic system.
3. State Socialism allows for economic equality.
4. State Socialism is compatible with Democracy (1 & 2)
5. Economic equality is not incompatible with Democracy. (3 & 4)



sc94597 said:

Would you not say the current safety net found in the United States is not sufficient? I grew up in a family of a single mother who didn't graduate high school, with three sons. I never went without a house to live in, my medical expenses were covered (and I did have high costs when I was hit by a car at the age of ten), an education, food to eat, and even video games to play. I was successful in school, and despite my impoverished origins I attend a top-tier private university, with below-average loans because of mostly private, but also federal and state grants. My mother makes a taxable income of $11,000/ year, for the last few years without child-support, and she would recieve $3,000 - $4,000 back yearly. One must remember that the government safety net isn't the only safety net to exist, There are countless people who have helped us, just to help a friend if she would be late on her bills, or something along those lines. I've seen peers in similar socio-economic situations do the same as I have. According to the OECD, the American public social expenditure is only 15% of GDP, but the private expenditure is also 15% GDP. This makes up a total of 30% GDP, comparable to the Nordic countries, however; in these countries 28% of social expenditure is public and only a miniscule 1-2% is private. When we consider the size and diversity of the U.S compared to the Nordic countries, this is quite the impressive safety net for a federated land that isn't a nation-state.  

The one thing we can learn the most from the Nordic countries, though, in my opinoin, is the reduction of the special priveleges given to the upper middle-class and upper classes in controlling certain markets. That is equality under the law. Don't regulate an industry so that the only people that can afford the risk of entry are large corporations. It's special interests like these which make an economy un-egalitarian, and that isn't the work of a free-market, but rather a controlled one. 

Also with more productivity, we will experience lesser scaricity, and a lesser need for a safety net as the bottom denominator becomes much more prosperous and able to live a better life. 

Rather i think regulatory compliance assistance should be given to businesses that demonstrate a financial need for help with it. Most of those regulations are there for reasons other than another form of protectionism, though it is true that the regs disproportionately impact small businesses



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sc94597 said:
Michael-5 said:

How you you have technology without a market that pushes for it? You don't, but what part about a CEO making 400x the average employers income makes the company as a whole push harder? Wouldn't the company push harder if employees got a cut of the profits? That's how Google works, and I'll be damned....they're pushing technology more then anyone else.

Again, your comment is completely omitant on why Capitalism is bad? Every pro you mentioned for Capitalism, is not cause by capitalism, but you're making a good arguement for why Capitalmism is bad.

As for Russia, it's Capitalism in an extreme sense. Minimum wage is low, high income tax is low.... If you have money in Russia, it's easier to accumulate more because of how extremely right wing they are. USA, and many other developed countries have corporate taxes, and tax the wealthy. This is left wing, not Capitalism. Thus my arguement is that USA and other developed countries are great places to live in because of the socio-economic laws passed in them. Russia lasks these laws, and is very right wing.

What your telling me is that living in USA is nice, and for no informed reason at all, you attribute this to Capitalism. What I'm telling you, is that's false. The only reason you're not working for $1 an hour is because of left wing policies, policies which go against the notion of Capitalism.

When I say capitalism, I mean free-market capitalism, with minimal to no government interference. Russia's economy is filled with government involvement, and consequently their markets are not free. Not having a large welfare-state doesn't change that. 

Also, the a reason I'm not working for a dollar is because of things like Ford's assembly line, in which the worker became the consumer and giving out higher wages made the company more profitable. Or certain non-legal aspects of private unions, who demanded higher wages and received them (albeit I oppose their invovlement in laws, because it reduced the economic freedoms of non-union contractors.) But most of all, the free-markets allowed goods to become cheaper (such as Walmart) and the poor to be able to afford more things. You didn't have this with the abolishment of markets (Soviet Union) and you don't have this in controlled economies (Russia.) 

As for your question regarding the CEO, the corporation decided that they need his management and that is what he's worth. Trust me, they're not going to pay him any more than they think he'd work for or how much value he has. He's under the same conditions that the workers are under, the market. 

That's the thing, Russia's government interferes with peoples incomes much less then in the USA.

Russia's Corporate tax is 20%, where USA's can go up to 39%. USA has HUGE taxes on property (About 3% of the houses value annually). Russia taxes good more (meaning more money stays within the hands of the rich because everyone pays the same high tax on goods)., etc, etc. Russias tax system affects everyone much more equally then in USA, this makes it easier to accumulate wealth, and is the spirit of Capitalism. In comparision to Russia, USA is very left wing.

Russia being free-market or not has nothing to do with their structure of government. I agree with you, if they went free market, their companies would get crushed, but that has nothing to do with their structure of government. If anything, it shows you a great example of how Capitalism holds back at technological advances, since Russia is so far behind USA and the EU.

As for your example about people getting paid more, thats not Capitalism, that's socialism. Rewarding people more based on the skill of their work is socialist (however they wouldn't use money as currency). This is why Wal-Mart greeters and cashers get minimum wage, but the people who make your cars get paid more.

As for CEO's, they decide their own pay, not the corporation.

I really don't think you get what Capitalism is. You do realise that Capitalism is right wing politics, and USA in comparision to a lot of poorer (more Capitalist) countries is very left wing right?



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-CraZed- said:
I voted yes because economic equality is incompatible with every political system ever devised... Its also a pipe dream.

There was a time when economic equality existed. Whoever had the biggest club, had everything, and everyone else had significantly less. Cavemen times.



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Michael-5 said:
sc94597 said:
Michael-5 said:

How you you have technology without a market that pushes for it? You don't, but what part about a CEO making 400x the average employers income makes the company as a whole push harder? Wouldn't the company push harder if employees got a cut of the profits? That's how Google works, and I'll be damned....they're pushing technology more then anyone else.

Again, your comment is completely omitant on why Capitalism is bad? Every pro you mentioned for Capitalism, is not cause by capitalism, but you're making a good arguement for why Capitalmism is bad.

As for Russia, it's Capitalism in an extreme sense. Minimum wage is low, high income tax is low.... If you have money in Russia, it's easier to accumulate more because of how extremely right wing they are. USA, and many other developed countries have corporate taxes, and tax the wealthy. This is left wing, not Capitalism. Thus my arguement is that USA and other developed countries are great places to live in because of the socio-economic laws passed in them. Russia lasks these laws, and is very right wing.

What your telling me is that living in USA is nice, and for no informed reason at all, you attribute this to Capitalism. What I'm telling you, is that's false. The only reason you're not working for $1 an hour is because of left wing policies, policies which go against the notion of Capitalism.

When I say capitalism, I mean free-market capitalism, with minimal to no government interference. Russia's economy is filled with government involvement, and consequently their markets are not free. Not having a large welfare-state doesn't change that. 

Also, the a reason I'm not working for a dollar is because of things like Ford's assembly line, in which the worker became the consumer and giving out higher wages made the company more profitable. Or certain non-legal aspects of private unions, who demanded higher wages and received them (albeit I oppose their invovlement in laws, because it reduced the economic freedoms of non-union contractors.) But most of all, the free-markets allowed goods to become cheaper (such as Walmart) and the poor to be able to afford more things. You didn't have this with the abolishment of markets (Soviet Union) and you don't have this in controlled economies (Russia.) 

As for your question regarding the CEO, the corporation decided that they need his management and that is what he's worth. Trust me, they're not going to pay him any more than they think he'd work for or how much value he has. He's under the same conditions that the workers are under, the market. 

That's the thing, Russia's government interferes with peoples incomes much less then in the USA.

Russia's Corporate tax is 20%, where USA's can go up to 39%. USA has HUGE taxes on property (About 3% of the houses value annually). Russia taxes good more (meaning more money stays within the hands of the rich because everyone pays the same high tax on goods)., etc, etc. Russias tax system affects everyone much more equally then in USA, this makes it easier to accumulate wealth, and is the spirit of Capitalism. In comparision to Russia, USA is very left wing.

Russia being free-market or not has nothing to do with their structure of government. I agree with you, if they went free market, their companies would get crushed, but that has nothing to do with their structure of government. If anything, it shows you a great example of how Capitalism holds back at technological advances, since Russia is so far behind USA and the EU.

As for your example about people getting paid more, thats not Capitalism, that's socialism. Rewarding people more based on the skill of their work is socialist (however they wouldn't use money as currency). This is why Wal-Mart greeters and cashers get minimum wage, but the people who make your cars get paid more.

As for CEO's, they decide their own pay, not the corporation.

I really don't think you get what Capitalism is. You do realise that Capitalism is right wing politics, and USA in comparision to a lot of poorer (more Capitalist) countries is very left wing right?

 Capitalism is an economic system, not a "structure of government." You're the one who doesn't know what capitalism is.  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

: a way of organizing an economy so that the things that are used to make and transport products (such as land, oil, factories, ships, etc.) are owned by individual people and companies rather than by the government

 This is not capitalism. 

Russia’s economic environment remains “mostly unfree.” Despite relatively high economic growth, achieved mostly through sales of oil and gas, the foundations for long-term economic development remain fragile without an efficiently functioning legal framework. Corruption, endemic throughout the economy, is becoming ever more debilitating. The state maintains an extensive presence in many sectors through state-owned enterprises. Large state-owned institutions have increased their domination of the financial sector, outweighing domestic private and foreign banks.

Progress with market-oriented reforms has been uneven and often reversed at the urging of those with an interest in maintaining the status quo. Russia’s restrictive and burdensome regulatory environment discourages private-sector growth and severely hampers meaningful economic development. Increasing inflationary pressure poses a major risk to overall macroeconomic stability."



As for your remark on CEO's, from the most left-wing media source found in the U.S:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11414878/#.Uqjgh_RDvfI

"CEOs of public corporations get paid based on the recommendations of the board of directors. The pay package can include salary, bonus, stock options, and deferred compensation, along with use of the “company” jet to fly to the “company” villa in Tuscany or Aspen and a limo to drive you to an expense account lunch. Some CEO deals even require the company to pay their income taxes."



I already said what I had to say. The economic system in Russia mirrors the ideals of Capitalism much more then the high corporate tax and left wing agenda of USA, Canada, and EU.

My point was technology was the main reason for the improvements in life quality in USA, not the economic structure, and that's largely true. While more people are unemployed now then before, the average lifestyle is better. People don't really starve to death anymore unless they have a serious mental illness and live on the street.

So economic equality and democracy do go hand and hand.



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Michael-5 said:

I already said what I had to say. The economic system in Russia mirrors the ideals of Capitalism much more then the high corporate tax and left wing agenda of USA, Canada, and EU.

My point was technology was the main reason for the improvements in life quality in USA, not the economic structure, and that's largely true. While more people are unemployed now then before, the average lifestyle is better. People don't really starve to death anymore unless they have a serious mental illness and live on the street.

So economic equality and democracy do go hand and hand.

You mean the economic system in which the means of production is mostly owned by the state versus the economic systems found in Canada, U.S, and the EU in which there is a higher degree of private ownership, in most of these countries surpassing that of the state?  My argument was that without free-markets and the concept of private property we wouldn't have the technologies that have benefitted the lives of the poor.