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Forums - Politics Discussion - Are Democracy and economic equality fundamentally incompatible?

 

Are Democracy and economic equality fundamentally incompatible?

Yes 43 40.57%
 
No 40 37.74%
 
Its Grey. 22 20.75%
 
Total:105

I voted yes because economic equality is incompatible with every political system ever devised... Its also a pipe dream.



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Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Anyway, the issue isn't income equality, but income mobility. The Nordic countries which are always described by the left as socialist paradises are so egalitarian because they have fewer regulatory policies on entry to business. That's why they are higher than the U.S in economic freedom indices. That is the benefit of a free-market system, movement among the classes is simple and easy. You have a good or service that people want, you provide that good or service, they pay you for it. No special government privileges, no regulations that push you out of the market, etc, etc. That's the truly moral system. Not a system that reduces your entry, but then says alright, you can have redistribution from those we benefited, because we recognize it's unfair of us to reduce the market to only them.

The key is that they balance that with a strong social safety net. Any society with any semblance of a moral compass (which also wants a market economy) is going to realize that the government needs to provide a basic level of dignity (achieved through direct provision of economic goods or a negative income tax of some sort) to all citizens, thus guaranteeing that no-one will ever truly suffer at the hands of the market. With that, you can lower barriers to entry (to an extent. Things like environmental regulations can't be toyed with) and are less reliant on things like the minimum wage to shore up the bottom, because you know that basically everyone is going to be taken care of in their time of need.

Is economic equality in an absolute sense achievable? No, and it won't be until we reach a post-scarcity Star Trek kind of society. Is economic equality achievable in terms of eliminating demeaning poverty, while still ensuring a functional market? Very much so.

Would you not say the current safety net found in the United States is not sufficient? I grew up in a family of a single mother who didn't graduate high school, with three sons. I never went without a house to live in, my medical expenses were covered (and I did have high costs when I was hit by a car at the age of ten), an education, food to eat, and even video games to play. I was successful in school, and despite my impoverished origins I attend a top-tier private university, with below-average loans because of mostly private, but also federal and state grants. My mother makes a taxable income of $11,000/ year, for the last few years without child-support, and she would recieve $3,000 - $4,000 back yearly. One must remember that the government safety net isn't the only safety net to exist, There are countless people who have helped us, just to help a friend if she would be late on her bills, or something along those lines. I've seen peers in similar socio-economic situations do the same as I have. According to the OECD, the American public social expenditure is only 15% of GDP, but the private expenditure is also 15% GDP. This makes up a total of 30% GDP, comparable to the Nordic countries, however; in these countries 28% of social expenditure is public and only a miniscule 1-2% is private. When we consider the size and diversity of the U.S compared to the Nordic countries, this is quite the impressive safety net for a federated land that isn't a nation-state.  

The one thing we can learn the most from the Nordic countries, though, in my opinoin, is the reduction of the special priveleges given to the upper middle-class and upper classes in controlling certain markets. That is equality under the law. Don't regulate an industry so that the only people that can afford the risk of entry are large corporations. It's special interests like these which make an economy un-egalitarian, and that isn't the work of a free-market, but rather a controlled one. 

Also with more productivity, we will experience lesser scaricity, and a lesser need for a safety net as the bottom denominator becomes much more prosperous and able to live a better life. 



Michael-5 said:
sc94597 said:
Michael-5 said:

How is the accumulation of wealth a problem? Ever heard the saying the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer? This is the problem, why is wealth being limited to the families of those who were wealthy 50-300 years ago? When companies use the lowest bidder to make their products, this creates a separation between the rich, middle class, and poor. This is a problem because this mean to be rich, you only need to be born into a rich family, which is an issue because it means that hard working people don't get their due rewards. Wealth without work is after all one of the 7 deadly sins according to Gandi (Greed is another according to the Bible).

Who determines when it's excess? Politicians. Corporate taxes are designed to keep excessive wealth down, putting money earned by big comapnies into roads and education. Problem is, Politicians tend to be well off, Mitt Romney for instance makes millions of dollars off oil companies, and he was running for president. Do you think people are going to pass taxes which cut away at their income?

So many flaws with the Capitalistic system.

Everything else you described can be thanked to technology, not to capitalism. Less people are poor now because the cost of luxuries has reduced. Owning a Mustang in the 70's meant buying a new car every 3 years (due to poor reliability), where as now a similarly priced mustang (with prices mathced with inflation) last 10-15 years, and has considerably more power. A/C prices have dropped to the point everyone can afford an A/C. Computers have dropped in price to the point that everyone can have one too, etc, etc.

Also BTW using that graph, Russia is for more Capitalist then USA....and it's near the bottom. Kinda helps my arguement more then yours....


But the poor aren't getting poorer, they're also getting richer. Just not as quickly as the rich are. How would you have technology without a market that pushes for it? Why did the cost of luxuries reduce? Because of greater production, why was there greater production? Because of free-markets and prices based on supply and demand. There is a reason why socialist countries like China and Russia had to open "special economic zones" in order to sustain production. Russia ranks 139 on the economic index.

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/russia

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

It's not more capitalist than most of the world, let alone the U.S (which is at 10.) But your point was that greater inequality leads to the poor being worst off, which isn't true. That was my point. 

How you you have technology without a market that pushes for it? You don't, but what part about a CEO making 400x the average employers income makes the company as a whole push harder? Wouldn't the company push harder if employees got a cut of the profits? That's how Google works, and I'll be damned....they're pushing technology more then anyone else.

Again, your comment is completely omitant on why Capitalism is bad? Every pro you mentioned for Capitalism, is not cause by capitalism, but you're making a good arguement for why Capitalmism is bad.

As for Russia, it's Capitalism in an extreme sense. Minimum wage is low, high income tax is low.... If you have money in Russia, it's easier to accumulate more because of how extremely right wing they are. USA, and many other developed countries have corporate taxes, and tax the wealthy. This is left wing, not Capitalism. Thus my arguement is that USA and other developed countries are great places to live in because of the socio-economic laws passed in them. Russia lasks these laws, and is very right wing.

What your telling me is that living in USA is nice, and for no informed reason at all, you attribute this to Capitalism. What I'm telling you, is that's false. The only reason you're not working for $1 an hour is because of left wing policies, policies which go against the notion of Capitalism.

When I say capitalism, I mean free-market capitalism, with minimal to no government interference. Russia's economy is filled with government involvement, and consequently their markets are not free. Not having a large welfare-state doesn't change that. 

Also, the a reason I'm not working for a dollar is because of things like Ford's assembly line, in which the worker became the consumer and giving out higher wages made the company more profitable. Or certain non-legal aspects of private unions, who demanded higher wages and received them (albeit I oppose their invovlement in laws, because it reduced the economic freedoms of non-union contractors.) But most of all, the free-markets allowed goods to become cheaper (such as Walmart) and the poor to be able to afford more things. You didn't have this with the abolishment of markets (Soviet Union) and you don't have this in controlled economies (Russia.) 

As for your question regarding the CEO, the corporation decided that they need his management and that is what he's worth. Trust me, they're not going to pay him any more than they think he'd work for or how much value he has. He's under the same conditions that the workers are under, the market. 



Economic equality in dictatorships is even worse........so lets keep that in mind here.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Also, one more thing. Capitalism hasn't always been the enemy of the "left." In the 18th and 19th centuries, in fact, the left pushed for free-markets as opposed with mercantilism, because they knew that it was the only way to benefit the poor and common men. It was only with the successes of the free-market that the left realized that redistribution was possible, as production lead to large amounts of wealth-accumulation. This caused a split in the left-wing, and coalitions were formed with the right (true-conservatives), and the left-right scale made much less sense than it had during the French and American revolutions.



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There is only one solution to all of that. We need to invent robot workers that can do any work task. That way everybody can be rich.



Netyaroze said:
There is only one solution to all of that. We need to invent robot workers that can do any work task. That way everybody can be rich.

Only if the state has a monopoly on these workers, the means of production, and redistrubtes the product of their work, equally. All of which would be unlikely. The issue isn't that work isn't being done, but rather how efficiently it is done and the means and numbers by which the product is distributed.

The economic calculation problem acts as an obstacle (some say "makes it impossible") for planners to efficiently determine which areas of production are most valuable. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem



sc94597 said:
Netyaroze said:
There is only one solution to all of that. We need to invent robot workers that can do any work task. That way everybody can be rich.

Only if the state has a monopoly on these workers, the means of production, and redistrubtes the product of their work, equally. All of which would be unlikely. The issue isn't that work isn't being done, but rather how efficiently it is done and the means and numbers by which the product is distributed.

The economic calculation problem acts as an obstacle (some say "makes it impossible") for planners to efficiently determine which areas of production are most valuable. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

 

It doesn`t matter how the distribution is if there are 10 robot workers per human everybody will be able to consume anything their heart desires. Amassing money will become pointless. If you can build those robots out of easily attainable material you can build workers that build workers they will cost only the energy cost as anything else will be done by the robots themselfs. We could build 100 Billion robot workers for 10 Billion people. They can easily produce enough to make everyone rich by todays standards. Its just a question of energy and technology in the end. Also there is the fear factor of losing control to the robots at one point.



Netyaroze said:
sc94597 said:
Netyaroze said:
There is only one solution to all of that. We need to invent robot workers that can do any work task. That way everybody can be rich.

Only if the state has a monopoly on these workers, the means of production, and redistrubtes the product of their work, equally. All of which would be unlikely. The issue isn't that work isn't being done, but rather how efficiently it is done and the means and numbers by which the product is distributed.

The economic calculation problem acts as an obstacle (some say "makes it impossible") for planners to efficiently determine which areas of production are most valuable. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

 

It doesn`t matter how the distribution is if there are 10 robot workers per human everybody will be able to consume anything their heart desires. Amassing money will become pointless. If you can build those robots out of easily attainable material you can build workers that build workers they will cost only the energy cost as anything else will be done by the robots themselfs. We could build 100 Billion robot workers for 10 Billion people. They can easily produce enough to make everyone rich by todays standards. Its just a question of energy and technology in the end. Also there is the fear factor of losing control to the robots at one point.

Resources are still limited in your scenario. People would still have to trade. 



sc94597 said:
Netyaroze said:
sc94597 said:
Netyaroze said:
There is only one solution to all of that. We need to invent robot workers that can do any work task. That way everybody can be rich.

Only if the state has a monopoly on these workers, the means of production, and redistrubtes the product of their work, equally. All of which would be unlikely. The issue isn't that work isn't being done, but rather how efficiently it is done and the means and numbers by which the product is distributed.

The economic calculation problem acts as an obstacle (some say "makes it impossible") for planners to efficiently determine which areas of production are most valuable. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

 

It doesn`t matter how the distribution is if there are 10 robot workers per human everybody will be able to consume anything their heart desires. Amassing money will become pointless. If you can build those robots out of easily attainable material you can build workers that build workers they will cost only the energy cost as anything else will be done by the robots themselfs. We could build 100 Billion robot workers for 10 Billion people. They can easily produce enough to make everyone rich by todays standards. Its just a question of energy and technology in the end. Also there is the fear factor of losing control to the robots at one point.

Resources are still limited in your scenario. People would still have to trade. 


Not necessarily. We can easily send those robots into space cheap in tiny capsules without lifesupport and way back to earth who then can mine asteroids and send anything of value back to earth. They could get their energy throúgh the sun in space.  The ressource problem wouldn`t be that big of a deal if we would harness energy and material in space through the robots.

What ressource would we run out of ? Except Oil which can be replaced.