By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics - Are Democracy and economic equality fundamentally incompatible?

 

Are Democracy and economic equality fundamentally incompatible?

Yes 43 40.57%
 
No 40 37.74%
 
Its Grey. 22 20.75%
 
Total:105
Aielyn said:

MDMAlliance said:


I'm not confusing anything here.  For something to follow a "rule," there needs to be some way to enforce it (whether it is government or not).  Judgement will be made by someone because how "hard" someone works is highly subjective in terms of worth, and benefits to society will not come in the same form everywhere.  It ends up that what you're thinking is that the people determine who deserves what.  You're kind of trying to ask for a completely free market.  That is not at all what would promote economic equality.

I'm going to stop you right there. At no point did I say anything about "a completely free market". Indeed, a completely free market would destroy any vestige of economic equality. No, a properly regulated market is what I'm talking about (I didn't say you said free market.  What I was saying was that you would need one to achieve a system where your pay is based off of something as subjective as "harder, smarter, etc."  Also, you say properly regulated.  Who will be doing the regulation, you say?  Do you think it's realistic for the people to regulate themselves or for the people of society to regulate the market?  -->) - one that is set up to make the "rational choice" for each person the same as the best outcome for society.  (Do you really think that's possible?  Maybe for a small society, but a large one I think would be impossible unless you have a totalitarian regime prior to it to get people into the position they need to be to set things like this.  Even then, there are no guarantees) Right now, it works a lot more like the prisoner's dilemma, where the system encourages people to make decisions that are to the detriment of society in the long run. (That doesn't sound like the pirsoner's dilemma to me.  Prisoner's dilemma is an IR term, and if you try applying it to domestic it still doesn't make sense because it's not a system anyway.  The Prisoner's dilemma refers to a dilemma of whether to trust, or to betray and the outcomes of when both sides don't trust and end up working out worse for both parties)

Indeed, if you notice, I referred to a "general rule". Not a "Rule", as in a requirement, but a "General rule", as in "a rule of thumb" or "a typical result". And this rule wouldn't be imposed, it would be engendered - people would follow it of their own volition. 
Not sure, is English your first language?  A general rule does not mean a typical result.  A rule of thumb is also not a general rule.  A general rule is a more vague way to refer to a set of standards or rules.  You can call England's legal system based on general rule, as it is based off of "common law."

You seem to have misinterpreted everything I've said, in fact. I didn't say that the 24 hour news cycle is the sole cause of corruption, I said that the result of the 24 hour news cycle's impact on politics is corruption.  (Weird you keep accusing me of misinterpreting what you say when I didn't say that either.  Nowhere did I imply that you thought the 24 hour news cycle is the sole cause of corruption.  What I did imply was that what you said looked like you thought the main cause for our corruption is what you call the "24 hour news cycle" and I disagree.  Corruption is simply when a government does something it's not supposed to be doing.  The 24 hour news cycle doesn't enable this behavior any more than it makes it a disincentive for it.) If I said that spending too much time at the beach results in skin cancer, it wouldn't mean that skin cancer didn't exist prior to people spending time at the beach. 

The point of my post was to get clarification as to what the original posted considers "economic equality", with details on how those two concepts differ, and thus why I need the clarification. Economic equality could mean "everyone is treated equally", or it could mean "everyone is on a level playing field with respect to things like family wealth, etc". Note that I never said that there's "a correct way" to set up a democracy. I said that if it's properly set up, then it can be compatible with economic equality (using the "level playing field" version). See, words have meanings - "correct way" is very different from "properly set up". The former implies a specific approach, whereas the latter is more like fine-tuning to make it run correctly. (Not really, those differences are not big at all.  Proper and correct are a difference of degree, if anything.  Both are subjective by the way.  Both imply "correctness" so I was still right to bring up the word)  Any democratic system could be set up "properly" to be compatible with economic equality, and for each system, the result would be different. I am simply asserting that it is possible to tweak or change any democracy to work towards the economic equality ideal. Of course, being an ideal, it will never be 100% achieved... but that doesn't mean it can't be compatible.  (Here's the problem, I asserted it isn't compatible unless you have something opposite of a democracy first.  Even then it may fall apart due to being "incompatible")

And I find it fascinating that you have a psychic power sufficient to determine that my system wouldn't work in the real world, when I haven't even described ANY of it to you. (I said I doubt, and it's due to what you already said, not what you didn't say) In case you didn't know, I'm an applied mathematician.  (Applied mathematics means nothing in this field, which I know a good bit about.  It would be different if you had an economics degree, but even then I would be skeptical) I know all about theory vs practice, and I have incorporated that into my ideas. I've also looked into the various systems currently in play, and I have formulated ideas that address what I perceive as holes in the current systems.  (None of that means much when you don't know the actual fundamentals of the topic)





Around the Network
bigjon said:
whatever said:
bigjon said:
Yes. Freedom allows those with talent to walk over the less talented. Without the gov to opress the intelligent and prop up those worthless to society we cannot have any semblance of economic equality

Nice trolling.

What do you feel was innacurate? 

I thought what you said was fine, but you do sound a bit arrogant. What if you're the less talented type?



What is with all the hate? Don't read GamrReview Articles. Contact me to ADD games to the Database
Vote for the March Most Wanted / February Results

Dr.Grass said:
Michael-5 said:
Dr.Grass said:
Since some people are

- smarter
- better with money
- grow up with different cultural outlooks towards money
- more talented
- more industrious
- more driven and ambitious
- of more value to the economy
- spend money more wisely
- etc.

than others, I think the society in which everyone has the same amount of capital is an artificial one that is just entirely unrealistic.

For instance, I deserve much more money than most of you because of some of the above reasons :P

I 100% agree with you, but more often then not, the weathier people in todays society did not work for their money, they inherited it.

For instance I have a friend who works at a private golf course. The bulk of players there are either retired, or youth who drive Audi R8's at 19.

The spread between CEO and common worked is growing, quickly. in 1910 the average CEO made 40x as much as an everage employer, not it's more like 800x. Sure companies are getting larger, but this just means fewer and fewer "families" are getting richer and richer. I think corporate taxes, and the taxes of high income individuals (people who generate over 1 million in income annually) needs to be increased. There is no use for this much income, you don't need a multiple Ferrarri's, only to see them depreciate because you don't drive them. However we do need more funding in Education, Roads, Homeless shellters, Mental Health Research Facilities, etc.

If I weren't dating a girl who's dad is one of those CEO guys then I might agree with you. *might*

But I've seen proper work ethic and a respect for money instilled by very wealthy men into their children, so I would disagree. Some men desire to create an empire for their children, so by hard work they deserve to be able to give that to them.

Those men who's sons drive R8's (damn sexy car) at 19 perhaps, are more often than not, very poor fathers. That does not mean that they didn't deserve the money they have.

How many millionaire's do you know? The one family I've gotten to know that are very, very wealthy certainly deserver it - all of them.

So you're saying that every children with rich parents deserves excessive wealth because the parents would have taught them good work ethics anyway? What about the people born into poor family's who work hard? What about immigrants who work hard, but loose a lot of money bringing their kids over to NA/EU so they can have a better life. Do those kids not deserve equal footing?

What about kids from rich Chinese households, who's parents send them to NA/EU for school, and they end up spending all the money partying? Do they deserve the money more then a kid from a broken family, who wants to make something out of themselves? Most 19 year olds with 100k+ cars I know are of this type.

I'm sorry, but my parents and their friends are for the most part well off, and I see no more reason why a rich kids deserves more then a poor kid. I find that rich kids typically live off their inheritence half the time, and don't do anything for themselves. More often then not I find really poor kids try to make a name for themselves.

The two wealthiest young adults (I'm 24) which I know worked hard for their money and came from broken households. Already they each make over 100k annually. They deserve the money more then anyone else.

Being born from rich parents doesn't mean that you'll inherit the traits which made them financially successful. Often times because the parents are too busy for the kids, or the kids are too spoiled, it just leads to them developing very bad work habits. Like you said smarter and more talented people deserve more money, but who said these people are always born from rich families?

Gandi labels wealth without work as one of the seven deadly sins, and I feel most people who are born wealthy will not work in retrospect to be worthy of such money. You're not risking anything if the money is guarenteed for you.



What is with all the hate? Don't read GamrReview Articles. Contact me to ADD games to the Database
Vote for the March Most Wanted / February Results

irstupid said:
Economic equality would look much like the book "faith of the fallen" by terry goodkind.

Is this a good book? What's it about (without spoiling).



What is with all the hate? Don't read GamrReview Articles. Contact me to ADD games to the Database
Vote for the March Most Wanted / February Results

Michael-5 said:
irstupid said:
Economic equality would look much like the book "faith of the fallen" by terry goodkind.

Is this a good book? What's it about (without spoiling).

It is part of the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind, and one of the best books in the series. It's pretty good. It's very, very, very  much like Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, but in the context of a High Fantasy universe. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_truth



Around the Network
Michael-5 said:
bigjon said:
whatever said:
bigjon said:
Yes. Freedom allows those with talent to walk over the less talented. Without the gov to opress the intelligent and prop up those worthless to society we cannot have any semblance of economic equality

Nice trolling.

What do you feel was innacurate? 

I thought what you said was fine, but you do sound a bit arrogant. What if you're the less talented type?


Well I believe the rich should help the poor. And I think it is sad that it takes a government to force us to do it.   I have an interest addition. Do you feel atheism and socialism are compatible? All atheists pretty much need to believe in evolution to make their worldview work. Doesn't socialism in nature stunt the evolutionary process? I would think atheism would lead one logically to fascism. 



End of 2009 Predictions (Set, January 1st 2009)

Wii- 72 million   3rd Year Peak, better slate of releases

360- 37 million   Should trend down slightly after 3rd year peak

PS3- 29 million  Sales should pick up next year, 3rd year peak and price cut

bigjon said:
Michael-5 said:
bigjon said:
whatever said:
bigjon said:
Yes. Freedom allows those with talent to walk over the less talented. Without the gov to opress the intelligent and prop up those worthless to society we cannot have any semblance of economic equality

Nice trolling.

What do you feel was innacurate? 

I thought what you said was fine, but you do sound a bit arrogant. What if you're the less talented type?


Well I believe the rich should help the poor. And I think it is sad that it takes a government to force us to do it.   I have an interest addition. Do you feel atheism and socialism are compatible? All atheists pretty much need to believe in evolution to make their worldview work. Doesn't socialism in nature stunt the evolutionary process? I would think atheism would lead one logically to fascism. 

This is not necessary. Even if I didn't know of evolution I would still be an athiest because of the logical flaws of religion. This is true regardless of empirical theories. I do understand evolution as well, and social darwinism is not necessarily the only logical conclusion of a belief in evolution. As far as my political beliefs, they're as oppositional to fascism as one can be, with the belief that unwarranted force (meaning self-defence only) is inherently immoral, complicates human relations, and voluntaryism is always preferable. This is described as the non-aggression principle. Fascism is the belief that force is alright if it reprsents some collective interest or belief, such as a nation. 



Not just democracy, economic equality is incompatible with humans as a whole. There will ALWAYS be people who control more money than other people, no matter what system is used.

For instance, if every single person made $50,000 per year, you are always going to have people who save their money, and are willing to effectively make money on that money. Even if you prevent that, and make it so every person can only spend $50,000 per year, you still have people who are effectively controlling more money (the government still has an inherent power in controlling where certain money goes).

Whenever people talk to me about income inequality, it always makes me think that if you "reset" everybody, after 50 years, you would probably have about 90% of the previously rich people rich once again, and 90% of the super poor people super poor once again. I don't really have much time for the complaints, as I know people who think they are owed everything, yet many of them were those who thought they didn't have to give a rats ass in school.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

PDF said:
scat398 said:

Economic equality doesn't exist in reality, and we should all be fortuante it doesn't.  If a society were ever to achieve this white whale it would crumble instantly.  

The sad thing is your professor actually thinks economic equality is probably something to try and achieve.

You didn't read the whole thread.  I'll put it in the op after this but the question is not about the possibility of economic equality existing.  It simply is asking if democracy inhibits it, or encourages it.  You can surely get closer to economic equality than we have now. 

Perhaps you should take a look at other countries (with different forms of government), and tell me whether their systems are any closer. Every country has that 1% that just has a ludicrous amount of money/power compared to the rest of the people. It doesn't matter the system.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

sc94597 said:
Michael-5 said:
irstupid said:
Economic equality would look much like the book "faith of the fallen" by terry goodkind.

Is this a good book? What's it about (without spoiling).

It is part of the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind, and one of the best books in the series. It's pretty good. It's very, very, very  much like Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, but in the context of a High Fantasy universe. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_truth

I'll look into it. Not for myself, but for my gf. She loves Dan Brown and she wants to get into the Century Trilogy by Ken Follet. To be honest a 12 book series might be a bit much to get into, and The Fountainhead (while her style book) is too old. Do you have any other recommendations?



What is with all the hate? Don't read GamrReview Articles. Contact me to ADD games to the Database
Vote for the March Most Wanted / February Results