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Forums - Gaming - PCG: savior of the industry?!?

It's probably harder to create tightly scripted experiences using procedural generation. Also, procedurally generated games tend to have more content so it's harder to get people to buy the same product again the next year.

Also, procedural generation seems to be pretty hard to pull off very well, and the big publishers think they can manage with the current model well enough for the moment. That is, they see the benefits of traditional content creation as bigger than those of procedural generation.



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sth88 said:
Am I the only person that wasn't blown away by No Man's Sky? I'm not exactly sure why, but it just didn't click with me. Maybe it was that we didn't get to see much in the way of combat; maybe it was the art style that felt more like a painting than a sci-fi adventure; maybe it was the lack of characters to interact with; maybe it was that the scuba diving bit at the beginning that just didn't look all that interesting. Whatever it was, this trailer just didn't intrigue me. The fact that it's procedurally generated doesn't have much impact on me, I could take it or leave it. I'd just as soon have pre-designed worlds with lots of little details put in by expert artists and other designers.

The seamless transition from planet surface to outer space was cool, but other than that, I just wasn't feeling it.

I thought the most impressive thing was their ambition to make this game with just a 4 man team. It sounds pretty absurd at first since this is open world sim in vain to Bungie's Destiny world wise(not combat,content etc). I thought the trailer itself was cool enough.



Sorry but PCG sucks 90% of the time.

You really need that human aspect of game design.



BloodyRain said:
sth88 said:
Am I the only person that wasn't blown away by No Man's Sky? I'm not exactly sure why, but it just didn't click with me. Maybe it was that we didn't get to see much in the way of combat; maybe it was the art style that felt more like a painting than a sci-fi adventure; maybe it was the lack of characters to interact with; maybe it was that the scuba diving bit at the beginning that just didn't look all that interesting. Whatever it was, this trailer just didn't intrigue me. The fact that it's procedurally generated doesn't have much impact on me, I could take it or leave it. I'd just as soon have pre-designed worlds with lots of little details put in by expert artists and other designers.

The seamless transition from planet surface to outer space was cool, but other than that, I just wasn't feeling it.

I thought the most impressive thing was their ambition to make this game with just a 4 man team. It sounds pretty absurd at first since this is open world sim in vain to Bungie's Destiny world wise(not combat,content etc). I thought the trailer itself was cool enough.

Sure, it seems like a pretty ambitious task for 4 people, but just because something is ambitious doesn't mean it's going to be incredible.  I find Destiny's world to be a much more interesting place to explore, and not just because of the superior graphics; they have a story/background/mythos to get invested in, they have alien races taking sides in conflicts.  Destiny gives me a purpose to go out and conquer worlds: to fight back against the vicious alien hordes who destroyed our empire and left us with just one city.  No Man's Sky may have plenty of areas to explore, but at this point it hasn't given me a reason to explore.

For some people, that may be just fine.  They don't need a reason, they just want to wander around and take in the view; they can make up the story in their head if they want to.  But for me, it's just not enough.  I want something driving me forward, a goal to achieve, and a cohesive world to dive into.



The Elder Scrolls seems like the sort of series that would benefit from procedurally generated locations. They already use it for quests and some loot and stuff, but I mean actual procedurally generated dungeons.



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Akvod said:

I found Bethesda's recycling of assets for dungeons boring and the dungeons were designed by humans. I've played a game (was it EverQuest Champions of Norrath? IDK, something like that) that does the whole random dungeon generator thing, and I never really cared about the level design, but enjoyed/didn't enjoy the RPG mechanics and the online co-op.

I think that if a game utilizes random generation, then the game can't really rely on the level design as its strongest point. Something like a social aspect/exploration or emphasis more on a dynamic AI (e.g. combat/stealth) needs to really be the main fun of the game.

It was lost dungeons of Norrath and they weren't random, just recycled assets. There were 8 to 10 variations per type, because they looked so similar it felt procedurally generated... Which is the main problem with PCG, how do you keep it interesting.
It's nothing new, the original Civilization (1991) already procedurally generated maps to play on, Elite (1984) before that, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first.

I vastly prefer the handcrafted 3D world design of Dark Souls over the mix and match dungeon design of Skyrim. How can you have memorable levels if they change all the time. Dark Souls' now exists in my memory as a beautiful 3D world, from Skyrim I only remember the basic layout of the over world and the memorable cities. I spend about the same time with both.

Procedural generation can work, Proteus is lovely to explore. Yet after you've seen all the building blocks you're done with it. Building a map in your head of the terrain and becoming familiar with it is an important part of exploration in games. PCG works against that. Unique locations and landmarks are a must imo.

Maybe PCG can be used to morph the game to your liking while still keeping it unique. Enhance sections you like, shorten stuff you don't like, that sort of thing. Still it's tricky. A game like The last of us is more memorable to me because the locations feel real and make sense in 3D space. Most TPS/FPS games fail in that because the procession of rooms doesn't make much sense together. Remember me had potential but the level design might as well have been randomly generated, it didn't make sense.
If you're going to use PCG for FPS/TPS make sure you adhere to one important rule, generate ahead and make sure you get glimpses of where you will be going and where you have come from. It has to make sense spatially.



SvennoJ said:
Akvod said:

I found Bethesda's recycling of assets for dungeons boring and the dungeons were designed by humans. I've played a game (was it EverQuest Champions of Norrath? IDK, something like that) that does the whole random dungeon generator thing, and I never really cared about the level design, but enjoyed/didn't enjoy the RPG mechanics and the online co-op.

I think that if a game utilizes random generation, then the game can't really rely on the level design as its strongest point. Something like a social aspect/exploration or emphasis more on a dynamic AI (e.g. combat/stealth) needs to really be the main fun of the game.

It was lost dungeons of Norrath and they weren't random, just recycled assets. There were 8 to 10 variations per type, because they looked so similar it felt procedurally generated... Which is the main problem with PCG, how do you keep it interesting.
It's nothing new, the original Civilization (1991) already procedurally generated maps to play on, Elite (1984) before that, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first.

I vastly prefer the handcrafted 3D world design of Dark Souls over the mix and match dungeon design of Skyrim. How can you have memorable levels if they change all the time. Dark Souls' now exists in my memory as a beautiful 3D world, from Skyrim I only remember the basic layout of the over world and the memorable cities. I spend about the same time with both.

Procedural generation can work, Proteus is lovely to explore. Yet after you've seen all the building blocks you're done with it. Building a map in your head of the terrain and becoming familiar with it is an important part of exploration in games. PCG works against that. Unique locations and landmarks are a must imo.

Maybe PCG can be used to morph the game to your liking while still keeping it unique. Enhance sections you like, shorten stuff you don't like, that sort of thing. Still it's tricky. A game like The last of us is more memorable to me because the locations feel real and make sense in 3D space. Most TPS/FPS games fail in that because the procession of rooms doesn't make much sense together. Remember me had potential but the level design might as well have been randomly generated, it didn't make sense.
If you're going to use PCG for FPS/TPS make sure you adhere to one important rule, generate ahead and make sure you get glimpses of where you will be going and where you have come from. It has to make sense spatially.


What do you think about Minecraft?

It is fun to just explore the game (I really just don't understand the game as a game though. It actually feels meta in a sense as you realize you're kind of wasting your time mining for resources and feel like an idiot for playing video games in general. And then I never really cared about playing the game like Legos), although even Minecraft's exploration can get old too.

 

Like I said, I don't think PCG games can't rely on level design or the map as the main attraction/core of the game. At some point, the experience of exploring gets dull, and aesthetically the game feels dull when you just keep seeing the same thing over and over again.

The PCG really just becomes a way to make other elements fresh and continue to shine. Combat, socializing, etc.



Akvod said:

What do you think about Minecraft?

It is fun to just explore the game (I really just don't understand the game as a game though. It actually feels meta in a sense as you realize you're kind of wasting your time mining for resources and feel like an idiot for playing video games in general. And then I never really cared about playing the game like Legos), although even Minecraft's exploration can get old too.

 

Like I said, I don't think PCG games can't rely on level design or the map as the main attraction/core of the game. At some point, the experience of exploring gets dull, and aesthetically the game feels dull when you just keep seeing the same thing over and over again.

The PCG really just becomes a way to make other elements fresh and continue to shine. Combat, socializing, etc.

I tried Minecraft a few times but it did not click with me. Running around, exploring was ok, much better in Proteus though. Terraria was better, also with procedurally generated maps, exploring the depths was more fun in 2D. Yet I still stuck to 1 map after I got going, it might as well have been hand made. Randomized maps work in strategy/building games like civilization. Those games play out so differently that they remain fresh for longer.

GT5 had PCG rally stages. A good way to keep you guessing and listen to your co-driver, but it all starts to look the same very soon. I guess since we're used to navigating by landmarks, a landscape where everything keeps randomly repeating quickly becomes unappealing.

I think Skyrim used PCG for certain quests, or at least I hope they did because they were terrible. Simple random errands.

Simple randomness can already work really well to keep things fresh. I played Tokyo Jungle for quite a while. The familiar terrain with continually changing threats was a great combination. Procedurally generating the terrain would have been too much.

Procedural generation is more suited to evolving worlds. From small slow changes like a river changing course to full scale volcano erruptions. From dust run at normal speed. Godus without all the clicking.



NYCrysis said:
Doesn't Deep Down use this?


wow, you're absolutely right.  how'd i miss that?!     and it's free to play..  you see, PCG makes sense!!

 

 

 

Deep Down, Capcom's strange, beautiful, displaced-time online RPG, is going to be free-to-play, and its beta will appear "near the launch of the PlayStation 4 in Japan," Sony's president of worldwide studios said via Twitter after the news was announced at Tokyo Game Show earlier today. 

As was revealed earlier this week, PlayStation 4 will arrive in Japan on Feb. 22. Deep Down is a PlayStation 4 exclusive, and will feature procedurally generated dungeons. Toshi Nakamura got a good look at it for us at Tokyo Games Show, finding it comparable to Dark Souls, although the game is set in New York in the year 2094. 

PlayStation 4 exclusive Deep Down to be free-to-play [Gamespot]

source

 




pokoko said:
We'll see. I've yet to experience PCG that I thought was on par with hand designed content. It has its place, certainly, but that place isn't everywhere.

 

perhaps.   i mean  really you're right.  but i don't think there are many examples to really base that experience on.    barely any games use PCG.   if the big boys actually invested in this a bit they could probably really turn it into something cool.   it's like how FPSs sucked on consoles for the longest time and then they figured out how to do it well.   well,. PCG sucks atm but i really thing there is something to it.