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Forums - Microsoft - Analyst: Xbox "generates" $2 billion in losses for MS. Hides it with patent royalties

Seece on 07 November 2013
ethomaz said:

Seece said:

Unless you have figures (and over what span are we even talking) I woudn't assume anything.

Fact is in NO year od the EDD/Xbox Division has it lost $2 billion. That's with Xbox making serious losses in the run up to 360 launching and losing $1b on RROD and losses on the console itself.

The EDD was making profit before Android was even around and it's been steady since 08. If Android is netting MS as much as has been quoted, it's not in this division, because NO bump has been seen anywhere. Why would the Android Patentless EDD go from $400/$300/$600m and then stay at that level after Android became big? At that point without android you would be expecting $1.5b in losses ... how would you explain that? Xbox profitable in 07/08/09 to 1.5b losses onwards?

I think by looking at Sony and Nintendo it's evident MS are making profit. The 360 is profitable at the price it's at (after two revisions) the software is profitable, and live is profitable. None of those are 'sinkhole's.

360 ecosystem will be propping up Xbox One development.

You are making assumptions like me but news hints to a non-profiable product...


Xbox One? I agree right now it's not profitable, course it isn't.



 

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drkohler on 07 November 2013
Seece said:


Fact is in NO year od the EDD/Xbox Division has it lost $2 billion. That's with Xbox making serious losses in the run up to 360 launching and losing $1b on RROD and losses on the console itself.

I think by looking at Sony and Nintendo it's evident MS are making profit. The 360 is profitable at the price it's at (after two revisions) the software is profitable, and live is profitable. None of those are 'sinkhole's.

360 ecosystem will be propping up Xbox One development.

MS has always carefully hidden the breakdown within ED&D. At all times, it contained groups that were highly profitable (Peripherals, Mac Software, Live, etc), and stuff that were (sometimes highly) unprofitable. Then there has always been vreative accounting, like: The $1b ADDITIONAL loss due to rrod was NOT charged to ED&D. The $1b PR stunts with Kinect were NOT fully charged to RD&D. The XBox360 was ONLY profitable in the US hardware-wise (which happens to be its best territory. Does anyone really think the $189 Kinect bundles are profitable hardware-wise in Europe?). At the end of the day, there must be a reason why people including Allen (biggest shareholder in MS stock) want XBox out of MS....



ethomaz on 07 November 2013

Seece said:

Xbox One? I agree right now it's not profitable, course it isn't.

Any.



Seece on 07 November 2013
drkohler said:
Seece said:


Fact is in NO year od the EDD/Xbox Division has it lost $2 billion. That's with Xbox making serious losses in the run up to 360 launching and losing $1b on RROD and losses on the console itself.

I think by looking at Sony and Nintendo it's evident MS are making profit. The 360 is profitable at the price it's at (after two revisions) the software is profitable, and live is profitable. None of those are 'sinkhole's.

360 ecosystem will be propping up Xbox One development.

MS has always carefully hidden the breakdown within ED&D. At all times, it contained groups that were highly profitable (Peripherals, Mac Software, Live, etc), and stuff that were (sometimes highly) unprofitable. Then there has always been vreative accounting, like: The $1b ADDITIONAL loss due to rrod was NOT charged to ED&D. The $1b PR stunts with Kinect were NOT fully charged to RD&D. The XBox360 was ONLY profitable in the US hardware-wise (which happens to be its best territory. Does anyone really think the $189 Kinect bundles are profitable hardware-wise in Europe?). At the end of the day, there must be a reason why people including Allen (biggest shareholder in MS stock) want XBox out of MS....

06 - 1.2b Loss
07 - 1.9b loss (year they made that $1b RROD pledge)
08 - $400m profit.

$1b PR stunts with Kinect?? I saw $500 and that was marketing over the course of a year, do you have any proof to what you're saying? Just seems to be pulled out of thin air.



 

Seece on 07 November 2013
ethomaz said:

Seece said:

Xbox One? I agree right now it's not profitable, course it isn't.

Any.


Any what? I mean if you don't think 360 is profitable that's your problem, it obviously is and has been for many years (no I'm not saying overall since it's inception) but in terms of here and now.



 

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ethomaz on 07 November 2013

Seece said:

Any what? I mean if you don't think 360 is profitable that's your problem, it obviously is and has been for many years (no I'm not saying overall since it's inception) but in terms of here and now.

News hints for otherwise like I said.

MS didn't prified with 360 yet... Sony not profited with PS3 too.

Only Nintendo profited with Wii.



Seece on 07 November 2013
ethomaz said:

Seece said:

Any what? I mean if you don't think 360 is profitable that's your problem, it obviously is and has been for many years (no I'm not saying overall since it's inception) but in terms of here and now.

News hints for otherwise like I said.

"news" you mean one opinion? That doesn't even specifically say "360 isn't profitable" you're seeing what you want to see. I don't know how you could argue with a straight face tha 360 hardware after all these years confirmed to be profitable and with two revisions is losing money, and even in the bizzare scenario it was, that live and software sales wernt making up for the cost.

There is no point further discussuing this, you know what you want to believe and it doesn't matter what is put in front of you. I can well believe Xbox One is causing some damage but suggesting after all these years 360 still isn't profitable, that's a joke.



 

DirtyP2002 on 07 November 2013
RolStoppable said:
If Xbox were successful, Microsoft would create its own division for it. That's how you highlight the success of a product. Sony did it once the PS1 worked, Sony lumped in PlayStation with other products because the PS3 was doing badly, Sony separated gaming again once it was doing well.

If there are doubts about the success of the Xbox brand, then the simplest way for Microsoft to prove naysayers wrong is to create a dedicated Xbox division. There's no good reason to have a successful Xbox brand dragged down by flopping products. But if Xbox is not successful, then there is reason to keep it in the E&D division.

The one thing that is certain is that Microsoft doesn't like transparency. They don't give projections for shipments and don't even post totals for software shipments.


Neither Office, Bing, Skype, Azure, SQL or Sharepoint have their own divisions.
Actually there is a WIndows division, but that is it.



Imagine not having GamePass on your console...

ethomaz on 07 November 2013

Seece said:

"news" you mean one opinion? That doesn't even specifically say "360 isn't profitable" you're seeing what you want to see. I don't know how you could argue with a straight face tha 360 hardware after all these years confirmed to be profitable and with two revisions is losing money, and even in the bizzare scenario it was, that live and software sales wernt making up for the cost.

There is no point further discussuing this, you know what you want to believe and it doesn't matter what is put in front of you. I can well believe Xbox One is causing some damage but suggesting after all these years 360 still isn't profitable, that's a joke.

You can believe what you want but dozen of new about non-profiable and shared holders trying to sell the Xbox divisin was found in the internet.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2013/01/20/sell-microsoft-now-game-over-ballmer-loses/

"And Microsoft makes nothing from its xBox/Kinect entertainment division"

Five seconds on google. 



DirtyP2002 on 07 November 2013
ethomaz said:
He is talking about the last quarter? If so I believe it is true... the massive amount of money to release a new console is crazy guys and MS faced a lot of issues with Xbone development this year.

PS4 hurt the Game division this quarter too.


Yes, ethomaz you are right.
MS lost 2.5 billion on the Xbox 360 / Xbox One in the past 3 months, but they are more or less +/- 0, because of Android.

Sony lost 2.5 billion on the PS4, but are more or less +/- 0. because the PS3 is so freaking profitable...



Imagine not having GamePass on your console...