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Forums - Microsoft - BLINDSIDED: Why the XBONE will win next gen.

Had me going at first, then by the end I'm just giving a strong "WTF?..." face at the screen. So much missinformation and half truths. Lets not even touch on the blatent disregard that the PS4 also exists, and for less than an XBO while still doing many of the same things.

The point on games is the only semi valid one but even that is a gross exaggerationt. "The most AAA games?" in like what universe?



      

      

      

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Mensrea said:
irstupid said:
Mensrea said:
Simple economics states that if two products do approximately the same thing, and the price of one is cheaper, the cheaper one will almost always win.

PS4 is going to have all the same multiplats,
They will look the same/marginally better
They will play on a controller that is roughly the same.

A wild card in this case is exclusives. Individual preference will bring over a few diehards to each side, but that is essentially a wash.

Kinect is a differentiating factor, but it probably alienates as many gamers as it brings in families, so I call that a non-factor.

What's left? Two online services that will be roughly the same, both featuring a subscription fee.

I fail to see any reason why Xbox One could win at this point besides lowering price to match PS4.

I would say that Kinect could be the biggest factor.

People on this site tend to forget that we are the minority.

All it takes is one media push talking about how great the Kinect is for say a dancing game or exercise game and you have millions of PARENTS jumping out to buy one.  Just look at Wii Fit, or when Wii first came out.  And these people wont' care about $500 price tag.  They drop $1,000 or more on exercise equipment they use for a week every couple years.

Then the xbox is in the house.  Any kids present in the house would then use that system versus spending $400+ on a PS4.  And as is usually the case with multiplats, Resolution, Bonus, ect mean jack shit.  It's all about what system your friends are playing on.  If all your friends have a Xbox One, you will get one.  Doesn't matter how many more polygons the ps4 has or if it dips less fps or whatever.  You will get a One for playing with your friends.  

Everyone single one of my friends owns a 360.  Maybe half own a PS3, and they didn't own one till later in gen, and most of them bought it for the blu ray, and not for games.  They still buy 360 games, cause their friends all play online for that system.  360 got them all cause their friends had it, not because it was "better" or anything like that.    Same reason everyone hats things like uplay or origin.  Sure you can bitch all you want about what is bad about htem, but the main reason is because they aren't steam.  You have all your friends on steam and games on steam, its annoying as hell to have to have another service.


Gamers are actually not in the minority as much as you would like to believe. 160 million people bought PS3's and Xbox 360's, I doubt many of them were buying those systems for kinect or move.

Your second point is VERY flawed. First of all, Kinect is not some new thing, it's been around for a while. They have made their media push, a second one for a slightly improved product is not going to do much. Secondly, the price IS  going to be a huge factor. Wii Fit worked because even with the balance board, it was still pretty cheap. It also banked on the already amazing sucess of the Wii. Which by the way was only 250 when it launched. 

Your telling me that a 500 dollar wii would have done anywhere near the numbers the wii did in the beggining? You are absolutely crazy. Wii =/= Xbone. 

I never mentioned anything about the graphical capabilities of either system. That is just for the fans to jerk off about. I agree that specs don't matter much. Sure will a more powerful PS4 sway a few buyers, sure, but overall that's not what really matters. What matter's is price. PS4 is more powerful, AND 100 dollars cheaper? (If you could buy margerine or butter and the butter was cheaper, which would you buy?) PRICE MATTERS.

 

Service switching is the only half coherant thing you mentioned in your argument. I agree, some people will definitely stay on what they know out of convienience, but not all. Also, your microcasm of friends does not represent the entire industry as a whole. There are more PS3's out there than there are 360's. So if everyone just stuck with the same thing out of convienience, PS4 would still win.......

When i say minority I mean people on gaming sites, those who look at reviews, ect.

Out of the 160 million gamers or whatever number it is.  multi console owners, multi same console owners, ect reduce that number.

But whatever the true 160 million is, I would say at best only 5% of that number consists of all people at IGN, Joystic, VGcharts, ect combined.    That's what I mean when I say minority.

Wii Fit you have $100 + $250 for the Wii.  Parents ate it up.  But I was comparing the price of Kinect/One to the price of say an eliptical, or a bowflex, or year gym membership.

Peopl splurge on shit like that all the time and end up using it for a copule weeks or the gym only till February.  I would not be surprised if my parents buy an Xbox One because they see the people on Today show or something showing off some new great exercise game.  They use it for a couple weeks then it will collect dust.  Maybe my dad would still use the kinect to play around with TV, but none of them would game.  Then if I still lived with my parents I would have a FREE Xbox to buy games for instead of having to pay $400 for a PS3.  Free is cheaper than $400.

Oh and i bet my parents don't remember what a Kinect is.  If Microsoft has some good commercial or as I said something on Today show or good morning america or whatever they will think its something new.  Kinect may get a jump due to what we would call a "fad" but a jump is all it may take for something to win.  The first one to solidly get the consumer base will win.  Look how much xbox still owns in U.S.  and did its whole life.  

There is some number that whatever console reaches it first will win in that territory.  Whether its 5 million or 10 million.  or if its maybe a certain threshold lead whether 1 million or 5 million.  Whatever the thing is.  Once it happens, it will be very very very hard to turn around.  No amount of amazing lineup will bridge that gap or advertising.  Word of mouth or friends have it, is just too big of an obstacle.  

And no there is not more PS3 out there, I'm not talking WW.  There is nearly double the 360 out there.  I'm from America, and those are the only numbers that matter when i'm talking about word of mouth or friends, ect. none of my friends or I have friends from Europe or Japan and couldn't care less what systems they own.  So for my sales arguments sake, America only matters.   If your from europe I suspect its the complete opposite and everyone of your friends has PS3 and only half 360's.

The Kinect could be a nothing, huge or a quick fad.  I'm just saying that if its either of the last two, it could be just the little nudge that makes the xbox one a winner in NA again.  



I tried to match the strategy and strengths bullet points... 



irstupid said:
Mensrea said:
Simple economics states that if two products do approximately the same thing, and the price of one is cheaper, the cheaper one will almost always win.

PS4 is going to have all the same multiplats,
They will look the same/marginally better
They will play on a controller that is roughly the same.

A wild card in this case is exclusives. Individual preference will bring over a few diehards to each side, but that is essentially a wash.

Kinect is a differentiating factor, but it probably alienates as many gamers as it brings in families, so I call that a non-factor.

What's left? Two online services that will be roughly the same, both featuring a subscription fee.

I fail to see any reason why Xbox One could win at this point besides lowering price to match PS4.

I would say that Kinect could be the biggest factor.

People on this site tend to forget that we are the minority.

All it takes is one media push talking about how great the Kinect is for say a dancing game or exercise game and you have millions of PARENTS jumping out to buy one.  Just look at Wii Fit, or when Wii first came out.  And these people wont' care about $500 price tag.  They drop $1,000 or more on exercise equipment they use for a week every couple years.

Then the xbox is in the house.  Any kids present in the house would then use that system versus spending $400+ on a PS4.  And as is usually the case with multiplats, Resolution, Bonus, ect mean jack shit.  It's all about what system your friends are playing on.  If all your friends have a Xbox One, you will get one.  Doesn't matter how many more polygons the ps4 has or if it dips less fps or whatever.  You will get a One for playing with your friends.  

Everyone single one of my friends owns a 360.  Maybe half own a PS3, and they didn't own one till later in gen, and most of them bought it for the blu ray, and not for games.  They still buy 360 games, cause their friends all play online for that system.  360 got them all cause their friends had it, not because it was "better" or anything like that.    Same reason everyone hats things like uplay or origin.  Sure you can bitch all you want about what is bad about htem, but the main reason is because they aren't steam.  You have all your friends on steam and games on steam, its annoying as hell to have to have another service.

I agree. Friends will buy what their other friends buy.
Also, I think kinect is a bigger factor than is being recognized. Kinect allows for all kinds of fitness games and people do buy systems to stem other costs (like you mentioned bowflex, etc). There really isn't another console that can deliver the same fitness games as xb1 can.



sethnintendo said:

I tried to match the strategy and strengths bullet points... 

I just happen to like the number 8.



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theprof00 said:

I just read a thread about a member here losing faith in the xbox one and frankly it was the last straw. It's time to stand up for the little guy and point out some things that apparently only myself and a handful of other people in the world can see.

You should let it go, just because one person says they lost faith doesnt mean its time to go on a crusade, microsoft isnt "the little guy" through no fault of their own, their actions, inactions and deception is what placed them where they currently are.

Strategy:
Microsoft is entering many different markets, and have developed the xbox one in such a way that as the console performs, so do the underlying technologies.

It is a normal games console with hdmi passthrough slapped on.

Here are the markets it is either establishing a position in or fortifying.
1. Consumer trend tracking and statistics
Not a single person buying this console is doing so for this.

2. Blu-ray
Given the availability of blu-ray players, functioning as a blu-ray player is not a primary reason to own the console.

3. Cloud and cloud-based retail application
Again, not a selling point.

4. "Hands-free" navigation
Lifting your hands to navigate with kinect is still using your hands, using voice control to navigate while nice in concept is nothing new, and i believe, available, or will be available, to playstation 4 users who purchase the camera too.

5. Home network
Again, much cheaper options available, many modern TVs have this feature built in.

6. DVR and television programming
That little black box under the tv that has been there all along, does this anyway, and more over, the xbox itself does not act asa DVR, instead it controls your existing equipment remotely, you cannot record TV directly from the xbox, nor does the xbox one feature any type of tuner, all it does is hdmi passthrough and overlay its UI on the passed stream, programming is done by the age old downloading of guide data and overlaying said guide over the hdmi passthrough.

7. Television production
Not sure what youre trying to point out here but any device that uses a tv is just as much a reason as anythng else to push tv sales - that being said, the recent drama about few titles supporting 1080p would result in, if anything only sales in cheaper, lower resolution sets.

8. Streaming UGC
Will be available on PS4 also, has been possible on a PC/Mac for an extremely long time, the restrictions placed by both microsoft and sony will ultimately prevent this feature from being as useful as existing methods.

Now let's take a look at XB1's relative strengths:
1. It is the only "all in one" product on the market that can also play AAA video games. Unlike competing products like AppleTV, WDTV, Roku, GoogleTV, Chromecast, YouView- the XB1 provides a complete suite of functions atop competitive offerings. While many of these competitors do provide things like "snap-in" and gesture/phone navigation and gaming, they still lack the heavy hitter games that move boxes like Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto.
Additionally, Tivo/DVR functions on most of these boxes require an upgrade of a harddrive. This generally results in increasing the price from anywhere around 79$ to 149$.

Again, the xbox one cannot act as a DVR, and those Tivo/DVR/Cable/Set top boxes are STILL REQUIRED along side the xbox one, to access said features, you seem somewhat misinformed about a product youre supposidly defending.

2. Clear identity. Face it, there is literally no product on the planet that provides a similar experience to the xbox one... in fact, even if a product was developed that could use gestures, play AAA games, record live tv, and have the kind of integration and streaming that xb1 has, it would cost much much more. One could argue that playstation is capable of doing the same with its offering, but for a great number of people (50% of 160m, according to current xbox360/ps3 numbers) the most important features are kinect, and the xbox franchises. I challenge you to point out a console that has kinect-like functionality with as robust an entertainment offering and game library as xb1 provides.
Yet again, xbox one cannot record live tv, all you have is a more powerful xbox 360 with hdmi passthrough, you are overblowing the tv functionality quite considerably.

3. Look at it this way. The xb1 basically is a smart-phone for your home. We've become conditioned to all the apps and functions that our phones provide. It's only natural that we would see something similar come to the livingroom, complete with its own social-subscription though at a far cheaper price than a typical monthly verizon bill would come to, yet can do so much more (author's note: even phone calls!)

Unfortunately, tablets such as the iPad and similar have been the smart-phone for your home for the past few years already, they are better suited and cheaper.

4. MS owns some of the best selling franchises on the planet. While arguable, when speaking of AAA-console-generation-exclusives MS owns the best selling games in nearly every genre. Authors note: I have excluded casual games such as phone or wii-games as they do not directly compete with MS' offering.

No, that would actually be Nintendo, youre just discounting them because they break your argument, casual games and wii games DO compete with MS' offerings, because they are games that cannot be played on MS hardware, period, and its right about now that it becomes obvious that you are willing to bend reality to back up your failing argument.

5. Ease of use/pricing. There is no better time to get into all these markets for consumers. It's unlikely you bought any kind of gesture control previously (as appletv sales suck balls) and doubly unlikely you have a computer for streaming (as again, PC market is tanking), so why not up and fix all of that with one simple box? (author's note: yet to be confirmed if you still require a cable box to watch tv with xb1) For 499$, you save yourself precious livingroom space, as in order to get what xb1 offers you would need:
1. Googletv 99$ with a hard drive 49$ - Why is this even listed?
2. DVR cable box 1.79$ per month - DVR box is still needed, the xbox one does NOT replace this requirement.
3. Xbox360 99$ + kinect 99$ - And what if you want to play Xbox 360 games?, Xbox One does not run them, if you dont want to play xbox 360 games this shouldnt even be in the list.
4. subscriptions to netflix and hulu 15$ per month - Instead you pay that and more to access them behind the XBL paywall, right.
5. HD Cables 99$ - Still needed for your DVR, why do you think the xbox one even HAS a hdmi input?, and who the hell pays $99 for HD inputs? oh wait, nobody just the guy trying to inject value artificially to support a terrible argument.
6. Bluray player 99$ - Finally, something that actually makes sense.

You know whats easier than booting up yet another peice of hardware to watch tv or check out whats on tv? simply saving $500 and the electricity costs by using the controller that came with your dvr/cable box/tv and accessing the features they already have.

And yet again, you STILL need a DVR box, and all the cables that come with it, as well as any subcriptions to the tv services you want to use on it, regardless of if you own and use an xbox one or not.

That's at least 2 boxes more (5 v 3) and still come out to the same price during the first month. There is so much value in the system, it's almost unheard of. It makes sense when you hear MS slogan: "All in One, xbox one"

Again, DVR/Cable box is still needed.

6. Free games. Nuff said.

Point me to a games console that doesnt offer free games with their subscription plans.

7. XB1 is already breaking pre-order records and is certain to outsell ps4's first week by a good margin. If you're a console gamer (and we know you are) you're going to want the system that everyone else is getting. Judging by first week sales, that's going to be xb1.

Virtually all wordlwide preorder articles have placed the PS4 ahead of the Xbox One by quite a stretch, so again you are simply blowing smoke out of your rear with no actual evidence so support a bad argument.

8. Just kidding, that's more than enough reasons. I'll let you pick up your brain off the floor now.

If anyones brains hit the floor i assure you it was out of disbelief that a so-called xbox one fan could be so confused and mis-informed about the product he is a fan about.

Since you snapped for the simple process of reading a single persons reasons for losing faith, ive commented on individual parts of your post to bring some reality to the table.

And with that, I think this thread is done, trolling or not I feel for you, I really do.

If you're serious then you have some major issues to address, If you're not and this was all a long winded, and genuinely not all that amusing joke, all you are doing is contributing to the demise of this community and helping to spread disinformation to random passers by who may not be entirely clued in to what each product offers, as such your joke is a shitty one.



irstupid said:

When i say minority I mean people on gaming sites, those who look at reviews, ect.

Out of the 160 million gamers or whatever number it is.  multi console owners, multi same console owners, ect reduce that number.

But whatever the true 160 million is, I would say at best only 5% of that number consists of all people at IGN, Joystic, VGcharts, ect combined.    That's what I mean when I say minority.

Wii Fit you have $100 + $250 for the Wii.  Parents ate it up.  But I was comparing the price of Kinect/One to the price of say an eliptical, or a bowflex, or year gym membership.

Peopl splurge on shit like that all the time and end up using it for a copule weeks or the gym only till February.  I would not be surprised if my parents buy an Xbox One because they see the people on Today show or something showing off some new great exercise game.  They use it for a couple weeks then it will collect dust.  Maybe my dad would still use the kinect to play around with TV, but none of them would game.  Then if I still lived with my parents I would have a FREE Xbox to buy games for instead of having to pay $400 for a PS3.  Free is cheaper than $400.

Oh and i bet my parents don't remember what a Kinect is.  If Microsoft has some good commercial or as I said something on Today show or good morning america or whatever they will think its something new.  Kinect may get a jump due to what we would call a "fad" but a jump is all it may take for something to win.  The first one to solidly get the consumer base will win.  Look how much xbox still owns in U.S.  and did its whole life.  

There is some number that whatever console reaches it first will win in that territory.  Whether its 5 million or 10 million.  or if its maybe a certain threshold lead whether 1 million or 5 million.  Whatever the thing is.  Once it happens, it will be very very very hard to turn around.  No amount of amazing lineup will bridge that gap or advertising.  Word of mouth or friends have it, is just too big of an obstacle.  

And no there is not more PS3 out there, I'm not talking WW.  There is nearly double the 360 out there.  I'm from America, and those are the only numbers that matter when i'm talking about word of mouth or friends, ect. none of my friends or I have friends from Europe or Japan and couldn't care less what systems they own.  So for my sales arguments sake, America only matters.   If your from europe I suspect its the complete opposite and everyone of your friends has PS3 and only half 360's.

The Kinect could be a nothing, huge or a quick fad.  I'm just saying that if its either of the last two, it could be just the little nudge that makes the xbox one a winner in NA again.  


You have little to no support saying we are in the minority of people who buy consoles. Either back it up, or drop it.

Wii Fit was still 150 dollars cheaper. I don't know what fantasyland you live in, but that's a good chunk of cash. Stop comparing the Xbone to the Wii, it's not similar at all.

I don't remember any fitness buffs saying "I think I will buy Wii fit instead of weights or treadmills". It's not the same market, no one is going to drop the same or even half the amount of money on an xbox for fitness as they would for weights. It's just not going to happen.

PS4 will be the same thing, today show will show it, people will splurge, your arguments are so tunnel visioned it's hilarious. Showing Kinect off is not going to do any more than it did last time. Probably less than last time, considering price and the law of diminishing returns.

Free is cheaper than 400 dollars, how does that factor into total sales? You're thinking everyone in the world is just going to count on their paretns to buy it because of something they saw on the today show and that somehow justifies it being more expensive. I shit you not, I laughed when I read this. It has no logical basis whatsoever.

US is not the world pal, and PS4 is looking to make deep inroads in the American market. Xbox will still win America, but not by much. And playstation will still dominate everwhere else. PS3 beat Xbox this gen in sales whether you like it or not. You say America is all that matters, but the thread title is "winning next gen" not "winning America"

You just beat your own word of mouth argument yourself. Sure word of mouth and friends will work for America. It's the opposite in Europe though, and Japan. So how exactly does having word of mouth in one country negate word of mouth in the others? There are more PS3 worldwide. That's why PS3 beat 360. What is complicated here?




theprof00 said:

I just read a thread about a member here losing faith in the xbox one and frankly it was the last straw. It's time to stand up for the little guy and point out some things that apparently only myself and a handful of other people in the world can see.

Strategy:
Microsoft is entering many different markets, and have developed the xbox one in such a way that as the console performs, so do the underlying technologies.
Here are the markets it is either establishing a position in or fortifying.
1. Consumer trend tracking and statistics
2. Blu-ray
3. Cloud and cloud-based retail application
4. "Hands-free" navigation
5. Home network
6. DVR and television programming
7. Television production
8. Streaming UGC

 

Now let's take a look at XB1's relative strengths:
1. It is the only "all in one" product on the market that can also play AAA video games. Unlike competing products like AppleTV, WDTV, Roku, GoogleTV, Chromecast, YouView- the XB1 provides a complete suite of functions atop competitive offerings. While many of these competitors do provide things like "snap-in" and gesture/phone navigation and gaming, they still lack the heavy hitter games that move boxes like Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto.
Additionally, Tivo/DVR functions on most of these boxes require an upgrade of a harddrive. This generally results in increasing the price from anywhere around 79$ to 149$.

2. Clear identity. Face it, there is literally no product on the planet that provides a similar experience to the xbox one... in fact, even if a product was developed that could use gestures, play AAA games, record live tv, and have the kind of integration and streaming that xb1 has, it would cost much much more. One could argue that playstation is capable of doing the same with its offering, but for a great number of people (50% of 160m, according to current xbox360/ps3 numbers) the most important features are kinect, and the xbox franchises. I challenge you to point out a console that has kinect-like functionality with as robust an entertainment offering and game library as xb1 provides.

3. Look at it this way. The xb1 basically is a smart-phone for your home. We've become conditioned to all the apps and functions that our phones provide. It's only natural that we would see something similar come to the livingroom, complete with its own social-subscription though at a far cheaper price than a typical monthly verizon bill would come to, yet can do so much more (author's note: even phone calls!)

4. MS owns some of the best selling franchises on the planet. While arguable, when speaking of AAA-console-generation-exclusives MS owns the best selling games in nearly every genre. Authors note: I have excluded casual games such as phone or wii-games as they do not directly compete with MS' offering.

5. Ease of use/pricing. There is no better time to get into all these markets for consumers. It's unlikely you bought any kind of gesture control previously (as appletv sales suck balls) and doubly unlikely you have a computer for streaming (as again, PC market is tanking), so why not up and fix all of that with one simple box? (author's note: yet to be confirmed if you still require a cable box to watch tv with xb1) For 499$, you save yourself precious livingroom space, as in order to get what xb1 offers you would need:
1. Googletv 99$ with a hard drive 49$
2. DVR cable box 1.79$ per month
3. Xbox360 99$ + kinect 99$
4. subscriptions to netflix and hulu 15$ per month
5. HD Cables 99$
6. Bluray player 99$

That's at least 2 boxes more (5 v 3) and still come out to the same price during the first month. There is so much value in the system, it's almost unheard of. It makes sense when you hear MS slogan: "All in One, xbox one"

6. Free games. Nuff said.

7. XB1 is already breaking pre-order records and is certain to outsell ps4's first week by a good margin. If you're a console gamer (and we know you are) you're going to want the system that everyone else is getting. Judging by first week sales, that's going to be xb1.

8. Just kidding, that's more than enough reasons. I'll let you pick up your brain off the floor now.

I agree 100% that this is a list of things that can be related to the possible sales perfomance of Xb one. The only thing that's completely wrong is point 8. That's just pure flamebait and I seriously thought about reporting you for that. So I guess I don't really 100% agree. But you're totally right.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

Microsoft always wins. Just look at the astronomical sales of Surface or the mind blowing marketshare of Windows Smartphones! And remember Zune? Yeah, MS showed Apple who's da boss! Microsoft just can't possibly fail!



唯一無二のRolStoppableに認められた、VGCの任天堂ファミリーの正式メンバーです。光栄に思います。

eFKac said:
I didn't even read but I disagree.

You should have at least read No. 8... you may try now.